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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 358853 times)
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #346 - 08/26/06 at 02:33:52
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Dom, 

What was Dashibalov's rating? Your line 

C)

15.Nxa5(?) seems like a dream for Black. It hands Black an extra move and extra attacking squares on the Q-side and removes one more piece from any potential kingside attack.  (Granted, there are only a few variations in which the Nb3 does indeed attack.) 

From what Ostap has been saying, there's little chance he will play that anyway.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #345 - 08/25/06 at 21:14:17
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15.Rg3 from my admittedly brief look at it, looks extremely risky (for both sides!)

Why not stick with classic chess principles and play 15.Bd4 - I dont care how many hours a computer looks at this - I am going with good old fashioned chess principles, call me old-fashioned!
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #344 - 08/25/06 at 20:34:09
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I can't blame you Dom you missed it, but I already have managed to refute line A with 22.Rf1 (indeed 22.Qh6 is less precise, though the final position might also be good for White) a5 23.f5 exf5 24.gxf5 Qxe5 25.fxg6 hxg6 26.Re1 Qh8 27.Re7 wins. At the moment I think Black must play either 16.Qe1 Qh4 or 16.Qf2 Bxc3.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #343 - 08/25/06 at 16:32:24
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My current analysis state:

A) 15.Rg3!? Nc4 16.Qe1 Bxe3 17.Rh3 g6 18.Qxe3 Bxc3 19.bxc7 Qc7 20.Qg3 (or 20.Qf2) Rfb8 21.Qh4 Nf8 22.Qh6 (premature?) a5 23.Rf1 Ra6 24.f5 exf5 25.gxf5 Qxe5 26.fxg6 hxg6 27.Rhf3 f5

or 16.Rh3 g6 (16..Nxd2 draw) 17.Bxc4 (17.Qe1 Nxe3 see above) bxc4 18.Nd4 Qa5 19.Bg1  (19.a3? Bxa3 ; 19. Bf2 Bfe8 20.Nde2 Bf8 21.Kb1 Qc7 22.Nd4 Rab8 or 20.f5 Bf8 21.Qf4 Qc7! 22.Nf3 Bg7 23.Bd4 f6 or 20.Qe1 Rab8 21.a3 Bf8) Rfe8 20.Qe1 Be7 22.f5 Qc7

B) 15.Bd4 Nxb3+ 16.axb3 Qc7 17.Qe3 Nc5 18.Bxh7+ Kxh7 19.Na2 Ne4 20.Nxb4 a5  or 16.cxb3 Bc5 17.Bc2 Bxd4 18.Qxd4 f6   

C) 15.Nxa5 Qxa5 16.Bd4 Rfc8 Dashibalov-Provotorov,Russie 2006 

  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #342 - 08/25/06 at 08:07:23
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I'm inclined to agree with this as well.  Athough I haven't looked at 15.Bd4 Nxb3+ deeply enough to be absolutely sure, it seems to me that 15.Rg3 is the right way to go - at least based on continuations examined so far.

I don't think that 15.Bd4 is actually a bad move, however - just a bit slower, and probably less certain, route to an advantage for White.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #341 - 08/25/06 at 04:28:10
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This may go against my best interests, but I strongly suspect that White's best is to wait until move 16 to play Bd4.  I do agree though that 15.Bd4 is a powerful alternative that needs to be considered.  However, it may be similar to some known lines in other variations of the Steinitz and further study of those lines will provide clues to its real strength.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #340 - 08/25/06 at 03:49:27
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I think it was Dom, who suggested 15.Bd4 Nxb3+, also several moons ago.  Wink
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #339 - 08/24/06 at 21:57:28
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I also think 15.Bd4! is a logical and good move. But until now I prefer Rg3 because it's faster. 

@dom 22.Re1 seems critical in your line.

regards,

Tom
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #338 - 08/24/06 at 21:41:07
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well I was away on holidays for a while and now just checked this thread to see how things were going....

firstly I am interested in the decision of 14...Na5 rather that 14...Rc8 - I still like that move for Black Wink 

Now after 14...Na5 (which I also thought was interesting) as I see it from my brief look at the posts we are trying to follow some computer analysis after 15.Rg1. Instead I suggest we stick with the human touch - 15.Bd4! fulfills the positional requirements and the attack will still be coming. I posted some analysis on this many moons ago.... perhaps improvements have been forthcoming in the meantime, apologies as I have to catch up and read all the posts  Sad

  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #337 - 08/24/06 at 05:55:25
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I just got my brand new computer.  It will take a while to load everything up, but maybe this weekend I'll actually have some constructive comments to make! 

Cheers! Smiley

(Of course, getting used to a slightly smaller keyboard may induce many more typos and misplaced moves.  Caveat emptor).
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #336 - 08/23/06 at 04:37:57
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Right now I'm analyzing (15.Rg3 Nc4) 16.Qe1 lines to see if White has a good continuation vs. 16...Qh4 and 16...Re8.  I think White's prospects look quite good in both cases, but there are still details to work out before I can make a reasonably confident assessment.

Based on what MNb is posting, 16.Qf2 lines are also looking promising - although I imagine there are still details to be worked out here as well.

If White has no problems proceeding with the typical attack after 16.Qf2 Bxc3 17.bxc3 then I can see no drawback to playing Qf2 instead of Qe1.  On the other hand, if White has no problems with 16.Qe1 Qh4 and 16.Qe1 Re8 lines (which is how it's looking to me so far) then I see no drawback to sticking with Qe1.

In the end, it may just be a toss-up.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #335 - 08/23/06 at 01:43:36
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Willempie wrote on 08/22/06 at 08:33:43:
The way I see it is that after 15 Rg3 Nc4 16 Qe1 Qh4 is quite tricky, while after 16 Qf2 Bxc3 may be very annoying. Whether this is enough to equalise for black is another question.


This nice summary is a compliment  Smiley, as I both proposed 16...Qh4 and 16.Qf2. I don't know if 16.Qf2 Bxc3 is that annoying. Fritz of course says that Black is better, but White still has the common plan of Rh3, Qh4, f4-f5-f6. A sample:
17.bxc3 Qe7 18.Kb1 f6 (Nxe3 19.Qxe3 Rfc8 20.Rh3 Nf8 21.f5 exf5 22.gxf5 f6 - else 23.f6 - 23.e6 Rxc3 24.Rg3 and 25.Rdg1) 19.Rh3 h6 20.Qh4 Rac8 21.exf6 Nxf6 22.g5 Ne4 23.Bd4 e5 24.Bxe5 Nxe5 25.Bxe4 dxe4 26.fxe5 Qxg5 27.Qxg5 hxg5 28.e6. Well, you know, long analysis = wrong analysis.

But then also the question arises: is 16.Qe1 Bxc3 17.Qxc3 Rc8 that good for White?
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #334 - 08/22/06 at 21:38:37
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memers, 

Thanks for the vote of confidence!  If I have to kiss the game good bye, then I have to go all the way back to 11.Nb3.  Maybe Watson's 11...b6 is indeed best, but I wanted to test out the "main" variation.  If this position is a bust, then I think 11...Bb4 is a bust too.

If 11...Bb4 is a bust, then congratulations to Ostap and company for proving it (at least to my satisfaction).

However, I still have some hope despite the dire weaknesses on the kingside.  We'll see what happens.  I'm not making any excuses when I say I lost some key analysis a few days ago, but I will have to recreate some pretty difficult and precise defensive moves.  Oh well, I guess that's the price of not backing things up.

Cheers!

PS:  Will you be at the Colorado Open, memers?
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #333 - 08/22/06 at 08:33:43
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The way I see it is that after 15 Rg3 Nc4 16 Qe1 Qh4 is quite tricky, while after 16 Qf2 Bxc3 may be very annoying. Whether this is enough to equalise for black is another question.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #332 - 08/22/06 at 07:17:44
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Hello,

1.OSB, I apologize for the witty?? remark. I was just making a comment on the origin of your "P" name and I find out on a earlier post between you and SF. Nothing vulgar or insinuating. I think the position is won/advantage for White after 15.Rg3 Nc4,  in fact, after 15. Rg3, IMHO. I also, posted the wrong variation on 14...a5 15.Rg3 Bxc3 16.Qxc3 Nb4 was the line I was thinking about. The other line just shows the inherent sac that is there after 15.Rg3.

2.MNB, 16.Qf2 Bxc3 should be better than 16...Re8. Like other posts, I threw a curve ball.

3.Finally,SF, unless OSB is gracious enough to play 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Rh3 with implied draw offer, you should kiss your game goodbye and chalk it up as a bad experiment.

Cheers
Memers
  
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