Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 16
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39: Death of King's Gambit (Read 158452 times)
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #144 - 06/19/04 at 12:36:19
Post Tools
Exactly in what sense was this thread successful  Grin

The King's Gambit is still as dubious as it ever was.

In terms of being the most viewed thread, it probaly wins hands down. However, I believe the real reason why this thread has been viewed so often, is that disillusioned King's Gambiteers and Gambiteers in general keep coming back here in hopes that someone, somewhere has found a way to make this gambit promising again.

FYI, no matter how many times you come back you will be disappointed.

There is no salvation for the King's Gambit.

Instead of coming back here, do as others have suggested, and refut...oops, I mean breakdown the KG line by line in separate threads. I see The Kieseritzky thread is already up an running, which leaves:

-> The Allagier
-> Hanstein
-> Philidor
-> Rosentreter (Perhaps the best of the worse, at least its the least explored of the bunch).

Have I left anything out?

Top  Grin      
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #143 - 06/19/04 at 11:02:19
Post Tools
Of course the thread could be continued but it will be to everyone's benifit to discuss the theory of each subvariation in saparate threads.  Look how many pages long this thread is!  It is very difficult to go back and look up anything one remembers seeing.  Perhaps this thread could still be used to post philisophical thoughts concerning the King's Gambit?  Or maybe to post a poll to see what everyone thinks Semprun's reward should be for starting the forums most successful topic.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Panda
Guest


Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #142 - 06/19/04 at 05:54:18
Post Tools
Why quit a winning thread?  Cheesy


Quote:
[...]  we are constantly trying to rehabilitate variations of the KG.  This doesn't happen in the Ruy Lopez.  At least not usually in the same way.  How often does Black come up with something in the RL that actually threatens its survival?


Isn't that a good argument for the Petroff? Why play a passive defence with no counter punch? Anyway, there must be RL lines that have been shown to be bad or equal for white, we just don't notice them as much. Wasn't the Zaitsev defence once thought equal for example?

Or consider the Sicilian, 2.c3 had a draw written all over it just a few years ago. When Gallagher wrote a book on it, some reviewers wrote there was no need to write on that drawing line at all! But c3 has remained popular nevertheless and a couple of years ago there was a new book claiming a white edge. 

Today, the Sveshnikov is looking so good that more and more GMs play 3.Bb5 or 3.Nc3. 

Actually, on higher levels the Sicilian scores so well against 1.e4 statistically, that 1.d4 or 1.Nf3 really should be preferred. Still even GMs persist in playing that "romantic" first move!  Grin

Personally, I think chess would be dead, if everyone always played 1.Nf3. It's no doubt sound, but it lacks "human interest" doesn't it?




Anyway, here's that Craig Evans game mentioned earlier in the thread:


Evans,C (1956) - Canizares Cuadra,P (2011) [C37]
TH-M-2333.2 IECC, 02.01.2004

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3 g4 5.Ne5 Qh4+ 6.g3 fxg3 7.Qxg4 Qxg4 8.Nxg4 d5 9.Ne3 d4 10.Nb5 Na6 11.Nxd4 gxh2 12.Rxh2 h5 13.Ndf5 Ne7 14.Bb5+ Bd7 15.Bxd7+ Kxd7 16.d3 Nxf5 17.Nxf5 Bd6 18.Nxd6 cxd6 19.Be3 f5 20.exf5 Raf8 21.Bxa7 Rxf5 22.Kd2 Nb4 23.Bd4 Rc8 24.c4 d5 25.Bc3 Nc6 26.cxd5 Ne5 27.Bxe5 Rxe5 28.Rah1 Rh8 29.Rh4 Rxd5 30.a4 Rh6 31.b4 Rg5 32.Rf1 Ke6 33.Rff4 b6 34.Rc4 Kd7 35.Kc3 Rhg6 36.Rcd4+ Kc7 37.Rhf4 Rg7 38.Rf6 R5g6 39.Rxg6 Rxg6 40.Rh4 Rg5 41.Rf4 Rg7 42.Kc4 Rh7 43.Rh4 Kc6 44.d4 Rh6 45.d5+ Kd6 46.a5 bxa5 47.bxa5 Kc7 48.Kc5 Ra6 49.Kb5 Rh6 50.Rc4+ Kb8 51.Rc6 Rh7 52.a6 Ka7 53.d6 Kb8 54.Rc4 h4 55.Kb6 Rd7 56.Kc6 Rd8 57.a7+ Kxa7 58.Kc7 1-0

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #141 - 06/17/04 at 17:30:10
Post Tools
I support this claim. Fernando deserves it.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fernando Semprun
Senior Member
****
Offline


Be nice to others. Life
is to be enjoyed!

Posts: 402
Location: Madrid
Joined: 04/29/03
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #140 - 06/17/04 at 16:22:23
Post Tools
As a closing post on this very topic (before opening a kieseritzky thread...) Do I get  a 'most successful thread award' or what?  ???   Smiley  Smiley  Smiley  Smiley  Embarrassed

Regards,


Semprun
  

Fernando Semprun
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #139 - 06/17/04 at 09:34:18
Post Tools
The search for the truth is commendable, and Glen's idea of separate threads is an excellent one.  Grin

My one reservation though is that if we continue along this vein, we maybe in danger of putting some ChessPublishing.com Site Pros out of work. Ohh Well.  Wink

Time to buckle down and get cracking gentlemen. The fate of the King's Gambit rests on your shoulders.

Top  Grin  
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #138 - 06/17/04 at 05:46:36
Post Tools
<their results at the time of abandonment speak for themselves I think.>
There are lies, big lies and statistics. In games with both opponents having ELO 2600+ White scores a healthy 58%. Who said, that the KG is unplayable on top level?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fernando Semprun
Senior Member
****
Offline


Be nice to others. Life
is to be enjoyed!

Posts: 402
Location: Madrid
Joined: 04/29/03
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #137 - 06/17/04 at 02:50:40
Post Tools
Glenn:

Excellent idea. I will start with kieseritzky and a few diagrams. But later, I better go to work now!
  

Fernando Semprun
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #136 - 06/16/04 at 23:10:37
Post Tools
After 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6! 6.d4 d6 7.Nd3, I wanted to point out even if 7...Nc6 8.d5 turns out to be ok for White, Black has the alternate move order 7...Nxe4 8.Bxf4 Nc6 9.c3 (9.d5?! Qe7 10.Be2 Nd4 11.0-0 Ng3, "Black is slightly better", T.Johansson.  He also says 9.Nc3 is bad.)  9...d5 and we are back in the Fedorov- Ivanchuck game.

Perhaps White can improve on Fedorov's play with the simple 10.Nd2 Bd6 11.Nxe4 dxe4 12.Ne5.

I think we should  start a new thread.  But rather than "Can the King's Gambit be saved", I would rather see it be done by variation.  Kieseritzky, Hanstein, Philidor, Bishop's, etc... (and of course these could be subdivided further)

Make no mistake about it.  I like the King's Gambit.  And I hope it is eventually shown that, besides it being a good practical weapon, it is theoretically sound.  However, I think it speaks volumes for Topnotch's argument that we are constantly trying to rehabilitate variations of the KG.  This doesn't happen in the Ruy Lopez.  At least not usually in the same way.  How often does Black come up with something in the RL that actually threatens its survival?  (I'd go with never here.) And of course there is the issue of learning main-line openings for one's further chess development.  At least that's what the people that are actually good tell me.   Roll Eyes
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #135 - 06/16/04 at 21:16:12
Post Tools
Without further ado and as Michael asked so nicely, here is the annotated game. Enjoy Grin

[Site "Wijk aan Zee NED"]
[Date "2001.??.??"]  
[White "Fedorov,Alex"]  
[Black "Ivanchuk,V"]
[Round "6"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2575"]
[BlackElo "2717"] 
[ECO "C39"] 
[Event "Corus"] 

1. e4 e5 2. f4 [ I have always found it interesting to tackle something for the first time in my life. I had not previously played against the King's Gambit.] 

exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. h4 g4 5. Ne5 Nf6 [ In recent times for some reason black has preferred 5...d6 6.Ng4 Nf6. But now if 6.Ng4 it is possible to take on e4, and the variation 6...Ne4 7.d3 Ng3 8.Bf4 Nh1 9.Qe2 Qe7 10.Nf6 Kd8 11.Bc7 Kc7 12.Nd5 Kd8 13.Ne7 Be7 is considered by theory to be favorable to black.] 

6. d4 d6 7. Nd3 Nc6!? [ A new continuation, which at least, is no less strong than the usual 7...Ne4 8.Bf4 Qe7 9. Qe2 Nc6 10.c3 Bf5 11.Nd2 0-0-0. (TopNotch: I prefer the lines stemming from 8...Bg7! rather than 8...Qe7 since after 8...Qe7 the reply 9.Be2!? may be stronger than 9.Qe2 as pointed out by Gallagher)]   

8. c3 [ White is not satisfied with 8.Nf4 Ne4, but the following line requires a practical testing: 8.d5 Ne5 9. Bf4 (9.Nc3!?) 9...Ne4 10.Ne5 de5 11.Be5 or 10.Qe2!? Instead of 9...Ne4, sounder is 9...Ng6 with good counterplay.] 

8...Nxe4 [ Initially 8...Bh6 9.Bf4 Bf4 10.Nf4 Ne4 seemed to me to be very interesting, but after 11.Qd3! 0-0 12.Nd2 it was not altogether clear to me how best to proceed. 12...Bf5 can be played, intending 13.Ne4 Be4 14.Qg3 f5! 15.Ne6? Qe7 16.Nf8 Bg2, but 13.0-0-0 ( instead of 13.Ne4) is also possible. 12...f5 also merits serious consideration, but nevertheless the game continuation appealed to me more.] 

9. Bxf4 d5! [Now in some ways the position resembles a Petroff Defence, in which Black has supported his centralised knight with d6-d5, and his king's bishop will be developed at d6.]

10. Nd2 Bd6 [ Now 11.Qe2 suggests itself, after which black has a pleasant choice between 11...0-0 12.Ne4 de4 13.Qe4 Re8 14.Ne5 Ne5 (14...f6?! 15.0-0-0! is very risky for Black) 15.de5 Be5 16.Be5 Qd6! 17.Bd6 Re4 18.Kd2 cd6 19.Bd3 Re5! =/+, and 11...f5 12.0-0-0 0-0 13.Qe3 Re8, but my opponent chooses another continuation.]   

11. Ne5 O-O [ I was not completely sure that the variation 11...Qf6 12.Ne4 Qf4 13.Nd6 cd6 14.Nd3 Qe4 15.Qe2 or even 15.Kd2!? was in my favor. Apart from the move played, 11...Nd2!? 12.Qd2 Ne5 13.de5 Be7 14.0-0-0 Be6 was also very tempting, when it is very hard for white to show that he has sufficient compensation for the pawn.]   

12. Nxe4 dxe4 13. Qc2!? [ If 13.Bg5, then Black has not only 13...f6, but also 13...Be7!? 14.Be7 Qe7 15.Ng4 f5 with a clear advantage.] 

13...Qf6 [ To some extent this involves an oversight. It now seems to me that 13...Bf5 was stronger, and if 14.Qf2, then 14...Be6! 15.0-0-0 Qe7 16.Nc6?! bc6 17.Bh6 f5! 18.Bf8 Rf8-/+. Also interesting is the trappy 14...Qf6 (instead of 14...Be6) 15.Bg5 Qe6 16.Bc4?! (16.Nc4! is better) 16...Ne5! 17.Be6 Nd3 18.Ke2 Nf2 19.Bf5 Nh1 20.Rh1 with a black plus.] 

14. Bg5?! [ White should have decided on 14.Qe4! Bf5 15.Qe3 Rae8 16.Bb5! Ne5 (16...Be5 17.de5 Ne5 18.Be8 Re8 is justified after 19.0-0-0?! Bg6!, but after 19.0-0! Nf3 20.Rf3 Re3 21.Re3 Qh4 White is not in danger of losing) 17.de5 Be5 (17...c6!? 18.Bc4 Be5 19.0-0 Unclear) and now possible are both the simple 18.0-0! with compensation for the pawn, as well as the adventurous 18.Be8?! Bf4 19.Qf4 (but not the losing 19.Bf7? Rf7 20.Qf4 Qe6 21.Kd2 Bg6!) 19...Re8 20.Kf2?! (if 20.Kd2!, white has to reckon with 20...Qc6 and 20...Qb6!?) 20...Qb6 21.Qd4 Qb2 22.Kg3 c5! (22...Re2 23.Rhg1 or 22...Re4 23.Rhb1 is less convincing) 23.Qf4 (23.Qc5 Rc8! 24.Qf5 Rc3 25.Kg4 Qg2 26.Kh5 Rc5! and mates) 23...Qc3 24.Kh2 Qe5 and Black is on top.] 

14...  Qf5 15. Nxc6 Bg3+  [The immediate 15...bc6 was also not bad, but after 16.Bc4 I would all the same have had to give  the check on g3. The reason for the early bishop check was my desire to avoid the endgame after 16.Qf2, which might not be won.] 

16. Kd1 bxc6 17. Bc4 Bf2 [I saw the variation 17...Be6!? 18.Rf1 Qg5 19.hg5 Bc4, which is not at all convincing, but I over-looked another queen sacrifice: 18...Qg6! 19.Rf6? Bc4! 20.Rg6 fg6!, which is in fact very strong. Stronger for white is 19.Be6 fe6 ( 19...Qe6 20.Rf6) 20.Ke2, retaining possibilities of a defence.] 

18. Qe2 Be6 19. Rf1 g3 20. Be3 c5! 21. Bxf2? [Things would have been more difficult for Black after 21. Kc2! cd4 22.cd4, although in this case too there is no doubt about his advantage.] 

21... Bxc4 22. Qxc4 gxf2 23. Qe2 cxd4 24. Rxf2 Qe5 25. Qg4+ Kh8 26. Rf5 [ White could have set a trap with 26.Qf5, and if 26...f6? 27.cd4 Qd4 28.Rd2!, when the play becomes sharper. But after the simple exchange on f5 the win is not at all difficult.] 

26...Qd6 27. Kc2 d3+ 28. Kd2 Rae8 29. Re1 e3+ 30. Rxe3 Rxe3 31. Kxe3 d2 32. Rf1 [ 32.Qd1 Qe6 33.Kf4 Qe1.]

32...Re8+ 33. Kf2 Qf6+ 34. Qf3 Qb6+ 
White resigned. 0-1 

Maybe its time someone started a new thread entitled - Can the King's Gambit be Saved?!

Top  Grin
« Last Edit: 06/17/04 at 09:08:50 by TopNotch »  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #134 - 06/16/04 at 09:06:08
Post Tools
Well said MNb!

However in your line against the Rosentreter in an earlier post: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 g4 5.Bf4 gf3 6.Qf3 Nc6 7.Bc4 Black must remember to include 7...d5! 8.Bd5 before 8...Nd4, as 7...Nd4 8.Bf7+ Kf7 9.Qh5+ Kg7 10.Be5+ Nf6 11.0-0 White has a devastating attack (analysis by Estrin&Glazkov) Incidentally this is the line that Soltis gives in his book whilst ignoring 7...d5!

The reason my Elo is only 2100 is certainly not the King's Gambit (like Craig in also score 80% with it), but in fact the Blackmar-Diemer, after four losses in a row last year (one against GM Henrik Danielsen but worst was two against lower rated opponents) I finally quit it which means that now I have to find something new against the Scandinavian, the Caro, Alekhine's def. and I can never play 1.d4 again  Wink

TopNotch, I would sure like to see Ivanchuk's annotations to the game against Fedorov, please. Does he mention the idea: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6 6.d4 d6 7.Nd3 Nc6 so far Fedorov-Ivanchuk and now 8.d5 as recommended by Bangiev? Then Hartmann-Betterman, corr 1990 continued 8...Ne5 9.Bf4 Qe7 but 9...Ng6 with even chances looks better.

The problem with the KG at GM level (and for certain people below GM level) is like Ben said that there are maybe 4-5 GMs playing the White side and 200 GMs with their silicon monsters defending the Black. For us mortals the main problem is that the available litterature is not much help either, just take a look at McDonald's og Soltis' two books and see what I mean.

I remember Tim Harding writing that he felt more comfortable in the lines after 5...Nf6 than after 5...d6, so perhaps someone can tell me the refutation of 5...Nf6 6.Bc4 d5 7.ed5 Bd6 8.d4 Nh5 9.Nc3 ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #133 - 06/16/04 at 05:22:48
Post Tools
We might also conclude that TopNotch is just too cowardly to give lines which should be good for Black. Moreover he is guilty of bad logic. He should not compare the KG with the Ruy Lopez, but with the Petrov. This most boring of all openings is exactly the reason for Whities not to play 2.Nf3.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ben_Hague
Full Member
***
Offline


I'm always happier when
I'm a pawn down.

Posts: 157
Location: Oldham
Joined: 06/20/03
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #132 - 06/16/04 at 04:29:34
Post Tools
I think that recent posts have clarified a few things. One is that to TopNotch the idea that the King's Gambit is bad has reached the status of a quasi-religious belief, and there isn't much point arguing with that sort of belief.

Another view is that because of the history and importance of the Ruy Lopez everyone should know how to play it. That's a reasonable point of view, and I have played the Lopez in the past, but I found that I prefered the positions I get from the King's Gambit. I play chess for enjoyment, so on that score I'm sticking with the King's Gambit.

It's also been said that the King's Gambit only works up to a certain level, although where that level is seems unclear. This may be true, but if it then the level must be quite high. Looking at my own results against players rated 2200+ (i.e. my own level and higher) I've had 15 games, won 6, drawn 6 and lost 3. Certainly if I felt that I was struggling with the King's Gambit (or any opening), or that I was getting sterile positions then I would give it up. I've done so with other openings, and I wouldn't have a problem with doing it again. However I'm not willing to give up an opening that I enjoy playing and am successful with for purely hypothetical reasons.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #131 - 06/16/04 at 01:57:30
Post Tools
Yup, Mr X pretty much summed it up in a nutshell  Grin

I too had to heed my own advice when the Scotch Gambits, Max Langes', Albins Counter Gambits as well as a whole host of other tricky Openings that served me so well as a class player, just didn't seem to work anymore as I climbed the ranks. Too many people knew the theory and weren't falling for my traps, which usually meant that I was often left with sterile equality or something worse. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

So once again I'm appealing to you as Morpheus did to Neo "Free Your Mind".

Seems I'm quoting The Matrix a lot these days.

Top  Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
X
God Member
*****
Offline


Education is a system
of imposed ignorance.Chomsky

Posts: 571
Joined: 10/04/03
Re: Death of King's Gambit
Reply #130 - 06/15/04 at 22:47:31
Post Tools
I agree with TopNotch, regarding his advice against using the King's Gambit as a main weapon.  I don't think his remarks about the King's Gambit are hardly controversial.  I don't think anyone could say the King's Gambit is on solid ground.  It is simply a harsh reality that if the King's Gambit is your only weapon against 1...e5, you will have serious holes in your tournament preparation (assuming the average level of opposition is above 1800 and your opponents are aware of the theory).  Yes, the quick wins are nice, but this is far from the whole picture.  If you are serious about improving, you want a solid, yet reasonably agressive, weapon that you can use to hold your ground against stronger opposition.  Yes, it is sometimes good tournament strategy to create complications against stronger opposition, but another factor to consider is how much you will learn in practice against stronger players.  If you play risky openings like this as white, you simply run the risk of getting blown out of the opening.  In many cases against strong opposition, this is simply a lost learning opportunity.  Simply put, if you're a class player who's playing the King's Gambit to avoid learning the Ruy Lopez, you're doing yourself a great disservice in the long term, if you have aspirations of becoming a master.  Even if you reach master this way, the weaknesses will be felt even more strongly...

I think this is pretty much the gist of TopNotch's and Semprum's arguments against using the King's Gambit regularly.  Maybe these arguments might be considered unrelated to the discussion, but I don't think they can easily be argued against.  I get the impression that a lot of people are missing the point of TopNotch's comments.  It seems as though people are arguing over completely different things without realizing it.  In my opinion, the audience for which TopNotch's advice is intended will mostly ignore his advice, since they are so stuck in their ways, and most of the people that bother to listen are already aware of the problems already.  So this getting to the point where I am wondering why I am even writing this, and I am even thinking about deleting this post entirely, since in many ways I am repeating what TopNotch has said already.  I get the feeling that I am wasting my time writing about a waste of time.  I have written so much already...Maybe I'll click "Post."  If anyone's offended... really, you shouldn't...
  

Power to the People!&&http://www.gravel2008.us/           http://www.nationalinitiative.us/&&Mike Gravel for President 2008
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 16
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo