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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope (Read 39052 times)
AmateurDragoneer
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #13 - 02/29/04 at 21:08:18
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I, too, would like to know how black can survive the endgame. 14...Qxg5 15. hxg5 Nd7 16. Bxg7 Kxg7 17. Rh4! looks very strong for White (who is planning f3-f4-f5) and even if white isn't winning here, he certainly has all the winning chances in my opinion.

Unlucky, as far as 14...b5!?, there are so many deviations from the main line (most of which are bad) so I will give what moves have been determined as "best" to a point. 15. Qxb5 Qc7 16. Qa4 Rab8 17. Kb1 is pretty much best for both sides. Here, Ward gives 17...Qb7!? as offering reasonable chances for black and his analysis can be found in Winning with the Sicilian Dragon 2. Also of interest might be 17...Bd7!? 18. Qxa7 (18. Qa3 e5 is fine for black) 18...Rb7 19. Qa3 e5 with adequate compensation. Certainly not a monograph, but enough to let you know where things stand.

Also, some new material. In the aforementioned main line: 16. Bd3 Bc4 17. Rh3 b5 18. Bxc4 (18...b4 cannot be allowed) bxc4 19. Ka2 Rb6 20. g4 Ra6 was Szuk-Schneider, A. 1996 which looks fine for black. In addition, 17. g4 b5 18. Bxc4 bxc4 19. Ka2 Rb7 20. Rh3 Rcb8 "with mutual chances" is given by A. Schneider on his "Dragon for Experts" CD.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #12 - 02/29/04 at 17:41:18
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Well, in the line posted by TopNotch, 11...Qa5? is a blunder due to 12.Nd5! Qxd2 13.Nxe7+ and Rxd2, winning a pawn - that's the point of playing 11.Kb1!

TopNotch, you say the line 12.h4 Rfc8 13.h5 Qa5 14.Qg5 is Ok for black after 14...b5 - I've been away from theory for a whilte, can you point me to the followup please? I still like the ending for white after 14...Qxg5 15.hxg5.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #11 - 02/29/04 at 16:47:44
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I find the lines more difficult to play against is when black tries to skip qc7 and when he does play qa5 in one go. Unless there is some reason that is looked down upon...
  
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Patrick
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #10 - 01/15/04 at 13:26:56
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I am still not able to find a way for black to hold the position after 17...b5. I also remember a refutation of that move being given in the above mentioned yearbook, but unfortunately I don't have it at hand right now.
So I had just had a look at a recent game of van der Wiel. In that game van der Wiel did not choose the strongest continuation and black could have drawn with 26...Qc7 instead of 26...Qd7?, for those who have the game score.
But after the moves 18.Bh6 Bh8 (what else) there is the possibility of 19.Bf8! This standard manouvre works in this position, at least according to the analysis I just performed ( I also think Bf8 was the suggestion in the yearbook):
a) 19...Rf8 20.Rxh8 Kh8 21.Qh6+ Kg8 22.Rh1 Nh5. So far so good. Now I think that 23.Rxh5 is a draw and 23.g4!? fails to win because of 23...Qb6! with Qd4 to follow soon if needed. But preventing Qb6 with 23.Nd5! seems to do the job, and so far I have failed to find a way for black to hold.
b) 19...Nh5 Ignoring the sacrifice does not help black. 20.Rxh5 gxh5 21.Bxe7 is curtains. Also the computer suggestion 20...Bxc3 fails to 21.Qxh6!
So, I am quite interested which continuation I might have missed.
Btw, I have to agree that the ending in the 16.h6 line is also at least a bit unpleasant for black. And I don't like the lines after 16...b4 too.
  
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AmateurDragoneer
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #9 - 01/15/04 at 06:35:35
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I completely agree  with Dragon expert. The only other line in this variaition I found that Black was doing poorly (statistically) in was the 17. g4 b5 line which Tiviakov gives as "main line" inh is 1995 monograph. But even from here, 18. Bxc4 bxc4 19. Ka2 Rc6 (with the idea of Ra6) looks fine for Black. Seriously, guys, this is only critical because of how precisely both sides must play. Black is facing more trouble in other lines the 12. h4 13. h5 14. h6 endgame still looks depressing for Black while 2. h4 13. g4 14. a3 Rab8 15. h5 b5 16. h6 still looks like trouble for Black unless there is something new to be had in the 16...b4 lines (I am currently investigating 17. Nd5! Bxd5), then 16...Bh8 17. Nd5 Qxd2 18. Rxd2 definitely looks at least somewhat better for white.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #8 - 01/15/04 at 05:32:12
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16.Bd3 Bc4 is the best move.
Then after 17.Rh3 b5 black is ok i think, but i dont have this yearbook!
17.Be3 b5! and white just has a draw by repetition
  
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Patrick
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #7 - 01/15/04 at 03:43:19
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In the variation you cited first, 18.Nxd5 Bxd5 19.exd5 instead of 18.exd5 is the "official" way to a white advantage, if I remember correctly. I have not examined the second line you proposed on the board but have the impression that the inclusion of a6 and Rh4 might favour white even more...
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #6 - 01/14/04 at 18:32:32
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As I do not play the Dragon anymore since more than
5 years and always avoided 9.o-o-o by playing the
Accelerated version, I am really no expert.
I do agree that 14.hxg6 hxg6 15.a3 Rab8 16.Bd3 is
critical. Initially I thought 16.. b5 17.Qg5 d5 an idea,
but 18.exd5! b4 19.Ne4 Qxd5 20.Nxf6+ exf6 21.Qxd5
Bxd5 22.Bxa7 looks good for White.
So maybe 16.. a6 17.Rh4 b5 18.Qg5 d5 and what are
the comments of the specialists?
  

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Patrick
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #5 - 01/14/04 at 05:11:29
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I have to admit that there are other lines except the 14.hxg6 line which I don't like so much either, but I think none of them comes as close to being a refutation as that line.

After 15.a3 the main line is Rab8 16.Bd3. Now black has a choice whether to play 16...b5, 16...Bc4 or even 16...a6.

a) 16...b5
This is one of the lines which at least made it into WWTD2, if even only as a small comment. After 17.Qg5! many often cited lines are known to be bad for black. The less known idea 17...Qd8, as given in WWTD2 seems to fail after 18.e5! according my analysis with similar lines as 17...Qc7 18.e5. If black wants to switch back to the 16...a6 line with 17...a6 and the idea of 18.Rh2?! Rc5! with a lot of counterplay, he has to reckon with 18.f4!

b) 16...a6
This move has the idea of playing 17...b5 without letting white play Qg5 immediately. 17.Rh4 looks like a better move than the once played 17.Rh2 because after the sequence 17...b5 18.Qg5 Rc5 19.Bxc5 dxc5 20.Qxc5 Nd7 21.Qb4 Qc7 the rook is not attacked and white wins a crucial tempo.

c) 16...Bc4 I once came to the conclusion that the lines starting with 17.Rh3 lead to a white advantage but the NIC yearbook I mentioned before shows that things are not so easy. In another source 17.Rh2 is given as clearly better for white but I have not looked at it extensively yet.  In a recent game 17.Be3 was played, and the conclusion was that after 17...Nd7 18.Bxc4 Rxc4 19.Nd5 Qxd2 20.Rxd2 Re8 21.Bxa7 b6 things were not so easy for black as thought before.

Apart from that black has the option 15...Bc4 which is often criticized because of 16.Rh3 but perhaps it is not so easy too refute after all. At least in my database I have not analyzed it to a clear advantage but I think there should be one.

Hoping for a lot of comments...
  
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TopNotch
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #4 - 01/14/04 at 00:22:18
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Thanks for the responses thus far  Grin

For the moment I would have to agree with Patrick. So far everything Ive analysed on my own and seen in print lead me to conclude that white is just better after: 

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11. Kb1 Qc7 12.h4 Rfc8 13.h5! Qa5 14.hxg6! hxg6 15.a3 

My conclusion that white is just better here seems to be confirmed by Database stats that show a huge plus score for white.

I appreciate AmateurDragoneer's optimism, but would just like to point out that the line quoted above is actually the critical one for the 9...Nxd4, 10...Be6 variation and has been for quite some time. 

The lines AmateurDragoneer gave, namely, 12. h4 13. h5 14. h6 and 12. h4 13. g4 14. Qg5 and 14. a3 (after h4 and g4) Rab8 15. h5 b5 16. h6 are not critical. The second of these lines with 14.Qg5  was in vogue for awhile but it has been since discovered that both the ending and especially the pawn sac with b5 are absolutely fine for black.

So two burning questions remain....Can this variation be saved for black and does Mr. Ward ever visit this forum. Cheesy

Keep hope alive.

Top  Grin

 
  

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AmateurDragoneer
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #3 - 01/13/04 at 22:50:14
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Not sure what you mean. This line looks fine for Black to me (will have some moves by this weekend). IMHO, the most critical lines are the 12. h4 13. h5 14. h6 and 12. h4 13. g4 14. Qg5 and 14. a3 (after h4 and g4) Rab8 15. h5 b5 16. h6 lines. This one looks like it should be a minor concern.
  
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Patrick
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #2 - 01/13/04 at 19:43:23
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Hehe, I don't know what the sunglassed smiley does there in my message above. Must be the "8" and the ")".
I was trying to write an 68  Smiley
  
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Patrick
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
Reply #1 - 01/13/04 at 19:41:52
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In my opinion this line is just better for white. I played this line from both sides for many years and have come to the conclusion that black is just worse, whatever he plays. I could provide some moves if there is interest, but I remember that one of the last NIC yearbooks (67 or 68) came to exactly the same conclusions as I did. So you might find enough in there to get convinced of this assessment.
By the way, don't get me wrong. I would love to hear of an improvement for black which makes this line playable Smiley
Patrick
  
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TopNotch
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9.0-0-0 - A Critical Line Under The Microscope
01/11/04 at 20:09:51
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Hello fellow Dragoneers, take a look at the following line:
 
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11. Kb1 Qc7 12.h4 Rfc8 13.h5! Qa5 14.hxg6! hxg6 15.a3 

Chris "Emergency" Ward Cheesy has often alluded to the fact that the above line is critical for the assessment of 9...Nxd4,10...Be6 against 9.0-0-0. However to date this exact line appears to be still unresolved and has not yet been dealt with in enough detail on either his website or in his books, so my question is simple, is the above line viable for black or is white just much better.

Thoughts

TopNotch  Grin

Postscript:- I would greatly appreciate if one could keep responses on point and avoid the temptation (As is a common practice on this forum  Angry) to vere off to other topics and discussions that would be better served by separate threads.

Many thanks in anticipation of your co-operation.  Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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