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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C47: The Belgrade Gambit (Read 150540 times)
MNb
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #155 - 05/21/05 at 08:44:23
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nd5 Nxe4 6.Bc4 Be7 7.o-o o-o 8.Re1 Nf6 9.Nxe7+ Nxe7
A) 10.Bg5 (I do not know, if this has been debated) c5 (Ng6 11.Qxd4 is an improved version of variation B) 11.Bxf6 gxf6 12.b4 d5 and I doubt if White has enough compensation for two pawns.
B) 10.Qxd4 d5 11.Bd3 Ng6
B1) 12.b4!? is worth looking at: a5 13.b5 Qd6 14.a4 Re8 15.Rxe8+ Nxe8 16.Ba3 += or Bg4 13.Ne5 Nxe5 14.Rxe5 Re8 15.Bb2 with sufficient compensation.
B2) 12.Bg5 Qd6 13.b4 a5 14.b5 c5 15.bxc6 bxc6 16.Bxg6 fxg6 17.Bf4 is about equal, but White's winning chances are almost zero.
Note that White has some other options on move 7 and 8.
Twenty years of experience with all sorts of gambits have teached me, to be careful before claiming an advantage for the gambiteer. But long lasting pressure due to the pair of bishops, as in line B1, is good enough for me.
  

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John_Toscano
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #154 - 05/20/05 at 14:50:48
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Its nice to get into a discussion of a concrete variation rather than follow a rather pointless discussion of the merits of 5.Be7 as an equalising move. For whatever it's worth, 5..Be7 is certainly a good move but has never put me off playing the BG. 

As for 5..Nxd5, there are some well-studied lines, all thought to be a bit better for White eg

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nd5 Nxd5 6.exd5 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Qe7+ 8.Qe2 Bxd2+ 9.Kxd2 Qxe2+ 10.Bxe2 Ne7 11.d6 gives White quite a lot of pressure in the ending, despite the pawn deficit

5..Nxd5 6.exd5 Nb4 7.Nxd4 Nxd5 8.Nf5 Ne7 9.Bg5 f6 [9...d5 10.Bxe7 Bxe7 11.Nxg7+ Kf8 12.Nh5] 10.Bxf6 gxf6 11.Qh5+ Ng6 12.0-0-0 is a promising sacrifice, though 9..d5 is an interesting alternative that gives Black plenty of play. I would avoid this by playing 5..Nxd5 6.exd5 Nb4 7.Bc4 Qe7+ 8.Kf1! which offers good chances for White.

I think these lines have put Black players off 5..Nxd5, especially as there are other moves that make life harder for White 








  
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photophore
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #153 - 05/20/05 at 03:59:47
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Hi TopNotch!
You might be a little more tolerant!
About Belgrade Gambit , I know almost nothing , and my question was the reflect of my ingenuity
when I discuss about an opening that I know rather well , as Two Knights Defence , I don't refuse to give concrete lines , some of them are new
So , don't consider me as a "pique-assiette" , and just answer me : what is wrong with 5...Nxd5?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #152 - 05/18/05 at 17:41:48
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Awww shucks guys, you flatter me  Embarrassed

I am just a patzer with a big mouth, so no need to lose any sleep worrying about how strong or weak, young or old I am.

My ongoing debate with Monson and his beloved Belgrade Gambit is a good thing. Such heated debates in the long run only serve to sell more books.  Wink

That was a hint to photophore, this forum is not meant as a free lunch or a replacement to Informant, New in Chess or Chesspublishing.com. If you want in depth coverage buy the books and study them, when you have done that you may come back here and discuss ideas, content or ask for clarification.

Give a man a fish he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he should never go hungry.

No 'DOUBT' about that.

Top  Grin   

  

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photophore
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #151 - 05/18/05 at 13:45:19
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Excuse my ingenuity , but nobody has told about what is the most obvious reply :
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 d4 exd4 5 Nd5 Nxd5
What are the White trumps in this line?
  
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #150 - 05/18/05 at 07:58:51
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Quote:
I have looked at Markovich' idea 10...d5 11.Bd3 Ng6 12.Bg5 Qd6 and this looks indead at least equal for Black.
With so few doubts I sometimes wonder why TopNotch is not a strong GM yet  Wink


Thanks, I appreciate your taking your time with that.  I was hoping that at some point, Bruce Monson would come here either to demonstrate White's chances against my idea or to admit that the Trajkovic line is not quite up to snuff.

Lately I too have been wondering both about TopNotch' actual strength in chess, which I assume exceeds my own (2240); and his age, which I am sometimes tempted to think must be no more than 18.  That was some very nice Dragon analysis he so generously posted, in any case. 
  

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MNb
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #149 - 05/18/05 at 05:34:14
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I have looked at Markovich' idea 10...d5 11.Bd3 Ng6 12.Bg5 Qd6 and this looks indead at least equal for Black.
With so few doubts I sometimes wonder why TopNotch is not a strong GM yet  Wink
  

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TopNotch
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #148 - 05/17/05 at 21:11:28
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A close look at this thread will reveal that I did supply some lines and improvements, sometimes obvious ones, on the games given. Grin

As for the Dragon, I think I sometimes supply too much analysis, but perhaps that is because I have a special interest in it.

Play the Belgrade if you must, no doubt you will soon be on the market again shopping for something else to play.

Peace and Love

Top  Grin
  

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MNb
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #147 - 05/17/05 at 15:27:02
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For all those, who don't feel like reading the whole thread: Monson has given many, many games, including several of his own, after 5.Nd5 Be7 with both 6.Bc4 and 6.Bf4. Of course TopNotch does not bother to give concrete lines against these moves, as he is assumes that he will be right, when repeats himself as often as possible.
It is a shame, as in various threads of the Dragon he has proven, that he is very capable of producing good analysis. TopNotch wishes us piece, but sometimes he reminds me of a wolf in sheepclothes .... Grin
Thanks to the posts of Monson I am seriously considering to pick up the Belgrade. So with Zarvox I am curious if there will be a second edition of his book.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #146 - 05/17/05 at 13:30:03
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The beauty of chess is that there are rarely "End of Story" scenarios--the number of messages in this thread is testament to that.

I've never played either side of the Belgrade Gambit (nor likely will), but I've been following this thread out of chessic interest, and would second Markovich's call for substance over rhetoric.  Let's get back on course, please.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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TopNotch
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #145 - 05/17/05 at 02:26:08
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5...Be7! is very easy to play and is for everyone from 1600-2500 Grin

There is not so much theory to master here and the ideas are not difficult to assimilate. Amateur players need to be shrewd, If 90% of the World's top players choose 5...Be7! when confronted by this gambit OTB, I would be inclined to think there mustbe a good reason.

Accepting the pawn or pawns in the Belgrade Gambit may in all likely hood be the most testing course, but unless you have done your homework well and in the absence of a clear refutation, then this is best left to the realm of correspondence chess.

In fact correspondence chess is where most of these weird and whacky gambits get the most testing, if something useful turns up there we OTB guys will take note of it and if practicable apply it.

Amateurs tend to overload their brains and memory with too much superfluous information. Master 5...Be7! and that is all one needs to know to get a good game against the Belgrade Gambit.

The effectiveness of 5...Be7! is the main reason why this Gambit is rarely seen in Over the board play today. I doubt this trend will change any time soon.

End of story

Top Grin
  

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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #144 - 05/16/05 at 10:47:09
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I respect the opinions both of TopNotch and of Bruce Monson.  However, I wouldn't come to this forum if opinions were all I found here.  It really is supremely unenlightening to learn that one player thinks that White after 5...Be7 has reasonable play for a win, while another thinks he doesn't.

I wish that the next time someone posts to this thread, they would post some specific ideas about how to play in given positions (e.g.) see my own post, previous page of this thread, concerning the Trajkovich line.  My ideas there remain unanswered, whether from their being ridiculous or simply from everyone's uninterest in the line considered, I am not sure.

I do think that the burden of proof concerning White's supposed winning chances after 5...Be7 rests with those who claim they exist, since established theory -- for whatever it is worth -- seems to say that Black's equality here is easy.

But we should also recognize that the question of whether significant winning chances exist with the Belgrade versus excellent opposition is not necessarily very interesting to the players who play chess, like me, significantly below the excellent level.

  

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TopNotch
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #143 - 05/16/05 at 01:12:24
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My apologies Zarvox, I did not mean to depress you  Grin

Yes I am repeating myself, I tend to do that when I am right  Wink and I am sure that if you had to meet 6...Be7! every time you played The Belgrade Gambit you would soon move on to greener pastures.

Regarding avoiding the Petroff, you should know that these players usually tend to go: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 Bb4!? So if getting the Belgrade by this route was your motivation then think again.

You did say a surprise weapon though, and in that case, its not such a bad choice, I could think of worse.

Good Luck

Top  Grin
  

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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #142 - 05/16/05 at 01:01:28
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Sigh. I just wanted to know if there was any news about progress on the 2nd edition of Monson's book, or if the Belgrade Gambit website is up. TopNotch, you're certainly entitled to your opinion but is it really necessary to keep repeating the same opinion over and over again in this thread?

I don't have an opinion at the moment regarding the position after Be7, but to me it's not the end of the world if it's equal (as NCO says). I would like to see the score of a match in the Belgrade Gambit between 2 equally rated players, where White knows the Belgrade Gambit well and Black just thinks Be7 is all he needs to know.

Obviously it's not objectively as strong as the Ruy Lopez, but if it leads to interesting and beautiful positions, that are not clearly better for Black, then it should be a good and fun surprise weapon. And it's a huge advantage that it can be used against the Petroff as well as against Nc6.

So... any updates on the book or website? Any interesting recent games in this opening? Thanks.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #141 - 05/16/05 at 00:59:38
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Ouch!! Grin

I will keep an eye out for high level games with this Gambit. There are bound to be lots.

In the meantime I will give it a whirl in my blitz games along with the Blackmar Diemer and Elephant Gambit.

Top Grin

Postscript: Don't bother to quote the Svidler vs Morozovitch game to me, as a close look at this will reveal that Moro was actually better there. Just goes to show that the element of surprise is not be underestimated in a game of chess, and I suspect that Svidler will not repeat this experiment anytime soon.
  

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