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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dutch vrs 1. Nf3 (Read 74234 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #8 - 10/25/04 at 22:02:37
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That's a good point Dragonslayer.  White should definitely be playing 3.d4 despite the lost tempo.  Can Black get a playable game with perhaps 3...d6 or 3...e6 (any other ideas)?  Both moves look awkward, but I'd like to see proof.  I still think Black is fine against 2.d3 based on the other suggestions in this thread.
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #7 - 10/25/04 at 13:56:57
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I usually play 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 with the idea of 3.e4 e5 transposing to an innocuous variation of the Latvian gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.d3?! Nc6).
I cannot find the Carlsen game in New In Chess at the moment but I am pretty sure that someone suggested 3.d3-d4!? in reply to 2...Nc6. Despite the loos of tempo, d4-d5 is a real threat. We don't want to play a Stonewall after 3...d5 so Black has to come up with something better.
  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #6 - 10/23/04 at 19:36:54
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Both of the last 2 posts reinforce my belief that this isn't a system (1.Nf3, 2.d3) that should deter a 1...f5 player.
  
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MNb
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #5 - 10/19/04 at 06:50:27
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As you might expect, I will not give up my pet defense very soon. After a short investigation:
1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 d6 3.e4 e5 4.Nc3
A) 4...Nf6 5.exf5
-5.d4 exd4 6.Nxd4 Nxe4 = according to Williams

5...Bxf5 6.d4 e4
-6...Nbd7 is equal (Williams) but what about 7.Bc4!? Maybe 7...Nb6 8.Bb3 e4 9.Nh4 Bg4.

7.Nh4
and according to Williams White is better; that is questionable after Bg4.

B) 4...Nc6 5.exf5
-5.Be2 Nf6 6.o-o Be7 7.Re1 o-o 8.Bf1 Appstrom-Biemann,1992, Qe8 9.d4 Nxe4 10.Bc4+ Kh8
11.dxe5 dxe5 12.Nxe4 fxe4 13.Rxe4 Bf5 with the initiative.

5...Bxf5 6.d4
-6.Be2 Be7 7.Be3 Nf6 8.o-o (8.a3 o-o 9.o-o d5) o-o 9.d4 a6 or Nxd4 =.

6...Nxd4 7.Nxd4 exd4 8.Qxd4 c6!
-8...Nf6 9.Bc4 is irritating, Carlsen-Dolmatov,2004.

9.Bf4
-As 9.Bc4 d5 is fine for Black and 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 c6 transposes to Romanisjin-
Malanjuk, 1987, this is the only try.

9...Qf6
-9...Bxc2 10.Kd2 Bg6 (Bf5 seems even better) 11.Re1+ Kd7 12.g3 Seel-Horstmann,2003, Nf6
13.Bh3+ Kc7 looks like a good fight.

10.Qd2
Breutigam-Dirr,2004. Now 10...o-o-o is unclear.

C) Black should definitely not try 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nf6? as 3.e4 is an improved version of the
Lisitsyn Gambit.
I also must admit that I do not like 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 e6 3.e4 too much. So if Black wants to avoid
the Lisitsyn Gambit proper, 1...e6 might not be the right way.
  

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Losetowin
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #4 - 10/18/04 at 02:30:09
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Thx for your swift reaction and interest in this line. I have a couple of comments now i think can be useful.

1) I meant 4 ....Nc6 and not 3...Nc6 in my first post.

2) In MNbs and Snows second variation i believe 4 e5! can be strong as well.

3) Kavalek had the game in his column and its still available at  
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A63094-2004F...
  
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Glenn Snow
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A) 4...Nf6 5.exf5 Bxf5 6.d4 NbRe: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #3 - 10/17/04 at 20:54:54
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[code]A) 4...Nf6 5.exf5 Bxf5 6.d4 Nbd7!? 
B) 3...Nf6 and 4...e6 and only after castling e6-e5.  MNb[/code]

What are the beginning moves in variation A)?  In the variation given by Losetowin Black has already played ...Nc6.

I'd assumed the second variation was bad for Black because of the continuation 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 d6 3.e4 Nf6 4.exf5 Bxf5 5.d4 and Black can't get in ...e5 smoothly.  But I'd be willing to listen if anybody thinks Black is OK in that position.
« Last Edit: 10/18/04 at 03:12:50 by Glenn Snow »  
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MNb
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #2 - 10/17/04 at 20:45:03
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Hmmm, if 9.Bc4 really is that strong, I have a slight problem. First reaction:
A) 4...Nf6 5.exf5 Bxf5 6.d4 Nbd7!?
B) 3...Nf6 and 4...e6 and only after castling e6-e5.
But I will investigate 9.Bc4 too, to check if White is better indeed.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #1 - 10/17/04 at 16:59:49
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I have a really hard time believing 2.d3 is a serious threat to 1...f5 versus 1.Nf3.  I'm sure the Philidor-Countergambit is unsound, but with an extra tempo it should be playable.  I have a feeling you might be right about 4...Nc6 being incorrect due to White being able to play d5 at some point with tempo.  I think possibly 4...Nf6 is better.  There is a NIC article on this that I don't have access to.  Can anyone tell us about alternatives to 4...Nc6 or improvements for Black in this line?
  
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Losetowin
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Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
10/17/04 at 16:43:04
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Child prodigy Carlsen won in 18 moves  vrs Dolmatov in  the line 1 Nf3 f5 2 d3 d6 3 e4 e5 4 Nc3 Nc6 5 exf5 Bxf5 6 d4 Nxd4 7 Nxd4 exd4 8 Qxd4 Nf6 in Moscow last february.

Carlsen unleashed the new move 9 Bc4! with the point of making short castling unplayable. Previously 9 Bd3 was the recommended line, and among others dutch expert Malaniuk had succesfully defended that position.

To me the it looks like the quiet d3-e4 plan indeed have some venom and  that possibly 3...Nc6 is incorrect (or is it playable?) What line do you prefer vrs whites build-up? ???
  
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