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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) trouble with Mr. Tarrasch (Read 16872 times)
basqueknight
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #18 - 04/29/05 at 20:11:41
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if you are uncomfortable playing against it play rubinstien
  
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memers
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #17 - 04/26/05 at 18:59:47
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Hello;

Before completley switching to 3....Be7, have you looked at the 9.exf6 Qxf6 lines Of the 3....Nf6 variation?? I have noticed that in 13 games GM Gleizerov has a devastating score(1/2/10) with this line from the Black side. Since, you already know the strategy and tactics for the  3...Nf6 mainline, you could rotate 9....Qxf6 like GM Gleizerov and GM Volkov. This way, the change of pace would give your opponents another line they need to prepare against you.

Have a good one!!
  
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johnmac
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #16 - 04/26/05 at 09:26:15
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Speaking as a someone who plays the white side of the tarrasch ( so far only in lots of online blitz games) I always feel a little uneasy after 3..Nf6. I know that if I make a slight misstep or forget some of the theory, then I can be blown away - if  black knows his stuff.

Provided your comfortable with sharp and tactical play, I always believe in going for these types of sharp positions as black (if possible) in whatever opening you choose. To prove that I practice what I preach, I play the hyper - accelerated dragon as black - with lots of success.

For most amateurs ( like myself ) it is hard to learn all the theory you need to know as white in the all the many different openings. This means that as black you can often make lots of hay with these types of sharp lines - provided you've done some homework. It easy to see at white has difficulty in attempting to master a mainline repetoire. Consider for example Kalifman's series of books based on Anand's openings as white - there are going to be seven now I believe. Compare this to his book for the black openings according to  Karpov. It is half the size of his volume on the Mainlines of the Ruy alone. 

The other thing 3...Nf6 has going for it is that the types of positions tend to be pretty unique to this line of the Tarrash - I believe. Contrast that with the other lines - the IQP or the Qd5 lines, where the pawn structure at least are pretty familiar to most players.

For inspiration look at some of Ulhmans games in his famous book - I think Batsford published under the title 
"Winning with the French" - if you haven't read it already. My recollection is that at least at some point in his career he played this for a while - with some real nice games. Perhaps looking at these old games you'll gain a little more comfort and confidence in blacks position.

So in summary I would play 3..Nf6 - if I played the French.


  

A bear of very little brain.
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M.Nb
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #15 - 04/22/05 at 20:20:14
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The drawing rate after 3.Nd2 Be7 is high, which indicates few winning chances for Black.
In losetowins b3 line: what about 14.Qc1 Qf6 15.Ne2 e5 like Ivantsjuk-Ruzele, Kramatorsk 1989 ? Black's play can be improved, I think. And 15.Nh5 Qg6 16.Nf4 Qg4 looks playable too.
  
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xx
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #14 - 04/22/05 at 08:15:00
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I used to have the same problems against the Tarrasch. I consider 3...Nf6 to be slightly suspect. 3...Nc6 might be worth a shot now and then, but I`m not willing to study the resulting positions. I now play 3...Be7, which I am quite satisfied with. Works better than any other attempts I have tried against the Tarrasch. Try it.
  
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brugui
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ganado son vacas

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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #13 - 04/22/05 at 07:48:53
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I am really greatful, everybody has been trying to help me, and every piece of advice has been taken and has been useful.

At the end I am going to try the unwise path. I am playing 3...Ae7. Why? Because it is the way I am going to play from now on against the tarrasch and why not starting now against this IM?

Let me tell you about my last Tarrasch. It was very sad, because I was playing quite well in an open and this "victory-to-be" would had put me in the middle of the fight for a price. But no.

Brugui plays the black side.
Barcelona, March 2005

e4 e6
d4 d5
Nd2 Nf6
e5 Nfd7
Bd3 c5
c3 Nc6
Ne2 cd
cd f6
ef Nf6
O-O Bd6
Nf3 O-O
Bf4 Bf4
Nf4 Ne4
g3 Ng5 (ok, possibly Qf6 is safer)
Ne5 Ne5
de5 Rf4
gf Nh3
Kh1 Qh4
Qf3 Nf4
Rad1 Bd7
Rfg1 Raf8

Where I think I have good compensation... but it is not as good as it seems. At the end the game changed from hand to hand and the time-trouble gave the point to my opponent (who defended the position well, after some weak moves from me)  ???

It is not THE reason to quit the line.... but helps.

So, a fresh start and the feeling of facing a good learning!

If you want any comment on the game... I will enjoy analyzing alongside with you guys!

Greetings from Barcelona
  
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Losetowin
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #12 - 04/22/05 at 07:12:37
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In MnBs line : b) 12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4  Ne4 white main options ( in short)are b1) 14 Ne2 Rxf3 b2) 14 g3 Qf6  Both very sharp positions ensues with black getting good play in my opinion

The last alternative is  b3) 14 Qc1 !? Ng4 15 Nxg4 Qxg4 16 Bxh7+ Kxh7 17 Nxe6 Qf6 18 Nxf8+ Qxf8 19 Qg5 Bf5

This last line is not entirely forced i guess, but white seem  to be slightly better in this position based on 2p +rook vrs B+N with king exposed. This seem to be a very tiresome postion to defend. Maybe 13... Ng4 is better?
  
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lnn2
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #11 - 04/21/05 at 08:32:04
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Quote:
A

I think (Tell me If I am wrong) that we (frenchies) don't like facing the Tarrasch... Maybe we can have an interesting poll that I propose in another subject!!!



you are right about the tarrasch.  Embarrassed It took me awhile to find my current solution.

Of course as a (mainly) caro-kann player i am always tempted to play 3... dxe4 and go into the rubinstein...
  
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M.Nb
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #10 - 04/21/05 at 06:52:48
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After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 (alas Ne4 is too risky) 5.c3 (according to GM Van der Wiel more precise than 5.Bd3 b6!?) c5 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.Nge2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Nf3 what is the difference between Qc7 11.o-o Bd6 and Bd6 11.o-o Qc7 ?
It is exactly because of the idea to exchange queens with Qg6+ - it happens in several forms - that I prefer to leave the queen on d8 for a while. So 10...Bd6 11.o-o o-o
a)12.Nc3 a6 13.Bg5 Qc7 and now 14.Bh4 Nh5 15.Qc2?! is met by Rxf3!
b)12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4 and I have not decided yet between Ne4 and Ng4.
c)12.Bg5 and is e5!? playable? Or is Bd7 better? What about Qb6 ?

Greetings from Moengo, Suriname. Brugui: greet Rijkaard for me.
  
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brugui
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ganado son vacas

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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #9 - 04/21/05 at 05:54:31
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To Dom, Thanks for the line... I am doing a bit of research in these lines and any advice is very welcome!

Greetings from Barcelona
  
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brugui
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ganado son vacas

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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #8 - 04/21/05 at 05:50:13
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Normally the reason why you quit from a line is a mix of different things.... but ALWAYS there is a common pattern: yes, a defeat that you adjudicate to the opening.

Normally if you have some experience, a single game is not going to make you change... but a string of poor results are, definitly are.

I agree that giving a thougth to my desire to change and my worries about tarrasch could help me to understand my own game or style...

Well, I don't know others but in my case I started playing the French thinking on the Winawer or MAc. NEver thinking on facing the Tarrasch.

Then, I don't know about 3...Be7. It seems to me that I can give it a try... or two. Then possibly I will re-consider the matter.

Greetings from Barcelona
  
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dom
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #7 - 04/21/05 at 05:50:01
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To Brugui: sure, you mean 3.Nd2 (not 3.Ne2)..
One advice: If you want to play Qc7 in any case, then 9..Qc7!? is a little more precise than 9..Bd6 (because of 10.Bf4?! Bb4+). If you play main line 10...Qc7 11.Bg5 oo 12.Bh4 Nh5 13.Qc2 (to avoid system where Black moves queen to g7 after g6) h6... you must note there is new line after 14.Bg6 Rxf3! 15.Bxh5 (instead of 15.gxf3). It's a positional line played by Marie Sebag and others..In Cork 2005 Tournament I saw: 15...Bxh2+ 16.Kh1 Rf8 17.g3 g5 and an original 18.Qg6+ to exchange queens. I
It's only one advice among many others.
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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dom
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #6 - 04/21/05 at 05:35:48
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Nf6!  Grin 
Seems interesting  to know EXACTLY why somebody has trouble with some lines ?  Is it a matter of taste (eg "I prefer to play Black with an isolated pawn thus c5 is good" or "I prefer closed center thus Nf6 is good"...) or a matter of knowledge (eg "what line to play vs the universal system?") or choice (eg "I prefer Be7 because there exists few theortical published  lines")...
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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brugui
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ganado son vacas

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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #5 - 04/21/05 at 05:28:24
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Smiley Many thanks for your replies. I am going to take into consideration 3...Be7 and that early c4 in the line 3...c5.

Maybe 3....Ae7 is the best possibility to keep in touch with grandmasters' play.

Next saturday I am playing an IM who is going to play 3.Ne2. I will play this line:

1.e4,e6
2.d4,d5
3.Ne2, Nf6
4.e5, Nd7
5.Bd3, c5
6.c3, Nc6
7.cd4, cd4
8.f6, Nf6
9.Nf3, Bd6
10.0.0,


Every tournement I play I have the same aim. Do my best and beat a master... and if not, make him/her suffer as much as I can.

I have beaten 2 IMs, but never with the French... I wish I could tell you different next Monday!!!

Thanks and Greetings from Barcelona
  
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castlerock
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #4 - 04/21/05 at 04:32:49
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I too had trouble with 3....Nf6. Positions resulting from 3...Be7 is not to my liking. Toying with the idea of 5...Nc3 Guimard. For the time being parked myself with Fort Knox!
  

CastleRock
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