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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) trouble with Mr. Tarrasch (Read 16874 times)
lost highway
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #33 - 06/18/05 at 07:58:55
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I agree with Inn2 that 4.Ngf3 is committal.  White no longer can play the Ne2 lines, but he still has a comfortable game after 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 h6 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. e5 Nfd7 6. c3 Be7 7. Bd3 c5 8. O-O Nc6 9. b3 O-O 10. Qe2.  I'll look at 4.e5 Nfd7 5.dc5.  I don't play the French now, but I used to play it years ago, and my experience was that the Tarrasch was much less of a problem than either 3.Nc3 or 3.e5.   

  
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #32 - 06/18/05 at 02:48:55
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I am back in the thread to answer Sjim's post...but if would be better if Inn2 gives his own reply.  Smiley

I give some variations with the "c4" idea in the French Tarrasch: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 (one "main line", often leading to isolated pawn game) and now

A) 4.Ngf3 ("universal system" ?) Nf6 (in other lines 4...cxd4 ; 4...Nc6 ; 4...a6 the c4 move will not occur because White will play some dxc5 and exd5 moves to give Black an isolated pawn on d5 square...maybe the most flexible a6 is used, like in Gurevich's games ) 5.exd5 (5.e5 is closed main line where c4 is not in Black strategy: attack d4 pawn with c5xd4;Qb6.. ; 5.Bb5+ leads to isolated pawn game after Bd7 or Nc6 example: 5...Bd7 6.Bxd7 Nbxd7 7.exd5 exd5 Carlsson-Potkin,2001 Mueller-Kindermann,Autriche 2002; Rozentalis-Ross,Montreal 2003  or Yemelin-Dolmatov,Novgorod 1999; Kharlov-Gurevich,Istanbul 2003 (Chesspublishing)  ) exd5 (5...Nxd5 is one good idea to play without isolated pawn as given for example, in McDonald&Harley's book about the French, game King-Dolmatov,Reykjavik 1990) and now 6.Bb5+ Bd7 and game as given above ; 6.dxc5 Bxc5 7.Nb3 isolated pawn game without c4, maybe one "safe" line for each side of the board ; 6.Ne2 Nc6 7.oo c4 ; 6.c3 c4 ; 6.Bd3 c4 7.Be2

B) 4.exd5 exd5 (4...Qxd5 not in c4 stategy but one other main line) 5.Ngf3 Nf6 transposes to A)

C) 4.c3!? Nf6 (Dom's advice ; if 4...cxd4 there is McDonald/Howell/Crawley's idea to go off-theory: 5.cxd4 dxe4 6.Nxe4 Bb4+ 7.Nc3) 5.exd5 (5.e5 closed main-line ; 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.Ngf3 Qb6 Dom but you can try the over variations 6..a6!? ; 6.cxd4 ; 6.Be7 ; 6.h6) exd5 6.Ngf3 c4

D) 4.dxc5 Bxc5 5.Nb3 leading to isolated pawn game
  

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lnn2
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #31 - 06/17/05 at 20:54:10
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Not so simple. If White commits to 4. Ngf3 surely it makes more sense for BLack to go 4... Nf6, where a "regular" tarrasch is avoided. 

3...h6 was discussed here in an old thread but it was only in relation to after 3. Nc3. Alumbrado suggested 3. Nc3 h6 4. e5(!) which poses problems for Black. 

After 3. Nd2 h6, I also think that 4. e5 does the trick. 3...h6 takes away the option of playing Nh6, which is often attractive for Black in the "Advanced Tarrasch". 

Bosch seems too dismissive of the 4. e5 advance generally (he gives no lines at all and declares they are all good for black!). 

After 3. Nd2 h6 4. e5 c5 5. dxc5! Nc6 6. Ngf3 Bxc5 7. Nb3 Bb6, White can play  Bd3 (or Bb5), 0-0, Re1 and strongpoint e5 with slight advantage, since  ...f6 is crucial in this type of structure but now more weakening.
  
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lost highway
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #30 - 06/17/05 at 15:49:12
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Sometimes I’m a strong player, sometimes not.  Anyway, I think 3…h6 is weak.  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 h6 4.Ngf3 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Bd3 Nxe4 7.Bxe4 c5 8.Be3 Nd7 9.O-O Qc7 10.Qe2 Bd6 11.Bd3 O-O 12.Rfe1 

White probably wins 80% from here.

  
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #29 - 06/17/05 at 12:30:20
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What do the strong players think of 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nd2(Nc3) h6!?. This French line was the subject of the SOS column in New In Chess Magazine 2004/1. I believe the line was created by the French IM Bricard and is played by GM Eingorn.
  
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lnn2
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #28 - 06/16/05 at 20:32:32
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Ah that article caught my eye too. It's not with me at the moment, but I remember Bosch gives White the advantage in quite a few places (somewhat surprisingly for his typically optimistic SOS analysis!). 

Not sure what to think of 5. Nc3 (?!)  Bb4. I prefer developing another piece, so 5. Bd3 Nf6 (the whole SOS idea) 6. Nxf6 gxf6 is the critical position which I think is fundamentally a better position for White, and Black's kingside "attack" is a pipe dream. There is always Bf4-g3 blocking the g-file no?
  
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notyetagm
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #27 - 06/16/05 at 17:40:02
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Any thoughts on the Matalymov variation, 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nd2(Nc3) dxe4 4 Nxe4 Qd5!?. This line is featured in the SOS column of the latest New In Chess magazine.
  
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HgMan
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #26 - 06/04/05 at 23:20:49
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I would imagine his books are terrific for correspondence chess though.


Yes: they typically are...
  

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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #25 - 06/04/05 at 21:48:39
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My current solution is the 3...c5, 4... exd5 variation + early ...c4. Annoys the heck out of many white players . Grin


Hi there,

Can you explain the move order? And how this ..c5 ..exd5 and ..c4 works?

e4 e5 , e6 d5 , Nd2 c5 what if Ngf3? Thanks.

Steve.
  
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #24 - 05/31/05 at 05:51:42
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About the guimard: I am trying to learn it, but it is not easy to play well... I feel like i'm learning a new opening and not the french!!


Oops. What a dampener of a reply!
Sad

I was half hoping to hear how white did not have any clue Smiley
  

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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #23 - 05/23/05 at 07:35:27
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i also agree some of Watson's 3rd ed. lines are too tactical, especially the 3... c5/4... Qxd5 section is horrifying. It is also the same problem with his Benoni book.  Embarrassed Maybe it is partly also the nature of the lines that he writes about? I would imagine his books are terrific for correspondence chess though. 

About the guimard: I am trying to learn it, but it is not easy to play well... I feel like i'm learning a new opening and not the french!!
  
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castlerock
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #22 - 05/23/05 at 03:30:07
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Any body has sufficient experience with Guimard against Tarrasch? Aside of Niel's updates, that is Cheesy
  

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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #21 - 05/20/05 at 11:37:04
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Regarding the comment about the Be7-tarrasch being "drawish", it certainly is very much up to the black player, just see how Moro handles the positions. An encouraging fact is that in my database, Be7 scores far better for black than any other move. It is however true that with Be7  you will quite likely not get what I consider to be a "true" french-type position. I am happy to see that Gurevich has been playing the Nf6 tarrasch with great success with the black pieces.  No doubt, Nf6 is the most aggressive option.
  

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castlerock
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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #20 - 04/30/05 at 02:09:32
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I am not very fond of Be7 and Watson's book (the last) convinced me to just play Nf6. For some reason that part of his book was not very convincing.

While at it am I the only person who is very disappointed by his book?


Nope. These days you have me for company. Undecided UndecidedThe positions you get in the off-beat lines appear more silicon than human to me. Especially I'm disillutioned with Be7 lines with g6 and 0-0.

Some of the exchange variation lines also make me feel uncomfortable.

To sort out my repertoire completely I parked myself in Fort Knox for the time being and it looks like I'll move towards Rubenstien, Burn, Steinitz and Guimard. This should give a pretty flexible repertoire to choose from.

His Qb6 repertoire for Advance French is Okay, though.

How is his Classical Section? Any Comments ?

The basic problem as I see is that the lines are pretty much tactical. What else can you expect from computer aided analysis?

Second edition, perhaps is better. I have lots of regards for Watson and he should consider revising the book to suit strategic (human) play.
  

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Re: trouble with Mr. Tarrasch
Reply #19 - 04/29/05 at 21:20:08
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I am not very fond of Be7 and Watson's book (the last) convinced me to just play Nf6. For some reason that part of his book was not very convincing.

While at it am I the only person who is very disappointed by his book? It is not like I dont trust his analysis and his repertoire, but I have got a general discomfort. For example his insisting on Nh6 in the various variations look rather dubious to me esp. since he usually doesnt consider Bxh6, which I think gives white an easy play as almost any endgame is good.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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