Latest Updates:
Normal Topic C05: Follow-up on “Trouble with Mr. Tarrasch” (Read 5209 times)
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Follow-up on “Trouble with Mr. Tarrasch”
Reply #9 - 06/22/05 at 23:27:04
Post Tools
Gueler, 

Thank you for correcting my rather obvious blunder.  You're right, I was thinking of the Bd3 line. Embarrassed There is still a chance to play the Bd6 line against f4, but only after 7. N (usuallyd)-f3 cd 8.cd f6 9.ef6 Nf6. 

It would be nice if White were so obliging as to trade on f6 in this position, as it would most likely lead to a transposition into the Bd3 line.  However, White has at least two good ideas here:  9.Bd3! intending 9...fe5? (9...f5? is playing a dubious line for Black a tempo down) 10.Ng5 and 11.Qh5.  If that is too straightforward, he can just ignore Black's moves and play 9.Ne2.  I guess that's why you don't see ...f6 before Qb6 against the f4 variation.

While I'm on the mea culpa's, I actually looked up the game I tried to write down from memory.  It was Ljubo-Gurevich, 1991 (not 1989), and White's fifteenth move wasn't Rb1 (dropping the B on d3) or Bb1, but Bc2.

I'll try not to waste your time with any more fumbled lines!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gueler
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 129
Location: Boston
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Follow-up on “Trouble with Mr. Tarrasch”
Reply #8 - 06/22/05 at 19:20:33
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan, in what line in the Tarrasch, where white played f4 do you have the opportunity to put your bishop on d6? Are you referring maybe to the setup with Bd3 instead of f4?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Follow-up on “Trouble with Mr. Tarrasch”
Reply #7 - 06/22/05 at 16:42:36
Post Tools
Regarding Mnb's latest (6/22/05) comments... In the ...Nf6 Tarrasch, Black pretty much has to play cxd5 before fxe6 for tactical reasons.  The Q on b6 becomes a bit of a target in some lines if it is played there too early, and has to return to the more useful square, c7.  So, At least from my perspective, it's more sensible to play Qc7 after Bd6 and before caslting.   

However, the Bb4+ line that you also mentioned became tremendously popular against the Spassky variation (g3 and h4) when Ljubojevic lost to Mikhail Gurevich at Linares (I think it was way back in 1989).  There, Gurevich played Qb6 and Bb4+ and forced Ljubo to resign on move 22 after chasing the white king to h3!   

That particular game went (this is from memory, so it may be wrong) 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ndf3 Qb6 8.h4 (the Spassky variation) cd 9.cd Bb4+ 10.Kf2 f6!11.Kg3 0-0 12. Bd3?! (I remember someone showing me that 12 Nh3 is better, but I don't remember the line) Nd4! (wow, unforgettable!) 13.Nd4 fe 14.fe Ne5 15. Something (maybe Rb1 or Bb1?) Ng6! 16.Bxg6 hg6 17.Nde2 Qf2 18.Kh3 Bd6 19.Qb3 e5! 20.Kh2 Qh4 21.Nh3 Bh3 and White resigns.   

This was one of the games that inspired me to play the French! Only after reading some of Karpov's analysis did I switch from ...Qb6 and Bb4 to the more productive Bd6 and Qc7 lines.  By the way, I generally agree that ...f6 is better than ...f5.  I hope this helps.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Follow-up on “Trouble with Mr. Tarrasch&
Reply #6 - 06/22/05 at 05:26:26
Post Tools
Thanks, Dom.
I think Black can improve on Adams-Carton, which is from 1989 btw. Simon Williams was willing to play this some years later against Dearing, who deviated first.
What keeps me busy most, is when to exchange on d4 (cxd4) and when on e5 (fxe5). At the moment I think Black can play these pawn exchanges immediately, to deny White extra possibilities - Nxd4 after cxd4 and dxe5 after fxe5. Opinions?
I have never understand the logic behind 9.g3 Bb4+ chasing the White king to a corner he wants to reach anyway.
As I am very attracted to the sacrificial possibilties on e5 closing the centre with f5 is not for me.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gueler
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 129
Location: Boston
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Follow-up on “Trouble with Mr. Tarrasch”
Reply #5 - 06/21/05 at 17:04:38
Post Tools
Thanks for your thoughts. I myself have been playing the Leningrad variation of the French Tarrasch (cd4 combined with Nb6). 

There are a number of nice games by Bunzmann where he pushed the pawn - without playing Nb6 however - see February 2004 update.

And when I am completely frustrated with the Tarrasch   Wink , I sometimes even surprise with Rb8, planning to play b5, b4 and possibly Qb6/Ba6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: Follow-up on “Trouble with Mr. Tarrasch&
Reply #4 - 06/21/05 at 16:06:25
Post Tools
Now, the "long" post about g5... Shocked

To Gueler: yes, after the first moves given by Mnb, 7...Qb6 8.g3 cxd4 9.cxd4 Bb4+ 10.Kf2 then 10...g5!? (Aleksei Kosikov.. see one chapter of Dvorestky&Yussupov "Opening Preparation" book)
If Black delays Bb4+ (as in the line given by Mnb) then White has one tempo to move bishop from f1 (Bh3/Bd3) and continue the plan started with 8.g3: move the king to the square g2 (McDonald&Harley). Example: 9...f6!? 10.Bh3 (10.Bd3!?) fxe5 11.fxe5 Bb4+ (11.Be7 see game: Adams-Carton,Swansea 1995 (Psakhis Nd2)) 12.Kf1 oo 13.Kg2! Ndxe5!? 14.dxe5 Nxe5 and now look at old Chesspublishing French update august 2004 game Mack-Beach ).

yes, the move 8...f5!? is only given in Mokry's book about the French,but it's difficult for me to understand Black's strategy, since Black has not counterplay on the kingside with a somewhat closed center.

One important alternative occurs when White plays a3 (e.g. to forbid Bb4+) or when Blacks plays a5. One good idea to Black is to keep all options in the center with a5:  8.g3 a5!? 9.a3 (9.a4!? cxd4 and roughly the same variation with g5 or f6) a4 10.Ne2 and now Black can try Ndb8 but it's far from clear...McShane-Poldauf,Allemagne 1998 (Psakhis Nd2)...and Black can wisely try 9...f5 instead of 9..a4. Kindermann-Polgar,Baden Baden 1985 (MCO et BCO). 
The line with a3!? is important because White has the choice to play an ealier a3 , with 8.a3 thus Black sometimes plays 7..cxd4 and now g3 move is not useful for White : 8.cxd4 Bb4+ 9.Kf2 Qb6 10.Be3 and the bishop on b4 doesn't allow Qxb2...



  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Follow-up on “Trouble with Mr. Tarrasch”
Reply #3 - 06/20/05 at 21:30:54
Post Tools
Sjebenjuk,N - MNb [C05]
em J50/P052 ICCF, 2001

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Pd2 Pf6 4.e5 Pfd7 5.f4 c5 6.c3 Pc6 7.Pdf3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Db6 9.Pe2 f6 10.a3 Le7 11.Pc3 fxe5 12.fxe5 0-0 13.Pa4 Dc7 14.Ld3 Txf3 15.gxf3 Pxd4 16.f4 Pxe5 17.fxe5 Dxe5+ 18.Kf1 Ld7 19.Kg2 Tf8 20.Pc3 Pf3 0-1

This is not as impressive as it looks, as I only had to find the last four moves myself. After 9.g3 I play f6 10.Nge2 fxe5 11.fxe5 Bb4+ because I do not entirely trust the attractive 9...Bb4+ 10.Kf2 g5 variation.

Which move order is more precise, 7... cxd4 8.cxd4 Qb6 or 7... Qb6 and 8... cxd4 and why?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gueler
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 129
Location: Boston
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Follow-up on “Trouble with Mr. Tarrasch”
Reply #2 - 06/20/05 at 13:52:15
Post Tools
Dom,

I assume you are referring to the system with 

1 e4 e6
2 d4 d5
3 Nd2 Nf6
4 e5 Nfd7
5 f4 c5
6 c3 Nc6
7 Ndf3 Qb6

Any takers for 7 ... cd4 8 cd4 f5 ? 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: Follow-up on “Trouble with Mr. Tarrasch”
Reply #1 - 06/20/05 at 06:28:53
Post Tools
Shortly "g5!? at some stage"  Wink
One of Dvorestsky's books is useful for the line for Black (Opening Preparation?)
It will take some time to review the line (and also lines vs the g5-line, like SPassky's h4)
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
s.gueler
Guest


C05: Follow-up on “Trouble with Mr. Tarrasch”
06/19/05 at 23:35:23
Post Tools
Not too long ago Brugui started the interesting thread “trouble with Mr. Tarrasch.”  Based on the feedback, it seems to me that the two most popular responses to Nd2 are Nf6 and dxe4. 

In the Nf6 line - with a white Bd3 - the setup with Bd6 and Qc7 as well as Bd6 with an immediate 0-0 by Black was discussed, not however Bd6 and Qb6.

I am interested what you guys are playing against the Tarrasch with Nf6 and the white system with f4.


« Last Edit: 08/03/11 at 19:27:42 by dom »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo