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Poll Question: Who was the WEAKEST Official World Chess Champion?
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Steinitz    
  17 (35.4%)
Lasker    
  1 (2.1%)
Alekhine    
  1 (2.1%)
Euwe    
  21 (43.8%)
Botvinnik    
  0 (0.0%)
Smyslov    
  1 (2.1%)
Tal    
  2 (4.2%)
Petrosian    
  3 (6.2%)
Spassky    
  2 (4.2%)
Karpov    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 48
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FIDE KO (Read 32170 times)
TalJechin
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #50 - 08/04/05 at 14:11:41
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Well according to Google, Tigran was born in Tibilisi (- only one source claimed Armenia), but I'm still not convinced that made him Georgian though...

Found an interesting discussion with some anecdotes at

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=16149

Btw, check out the Spielmann link at the bottom, with his J'accuse letter to Alekhine. Another speculaltion mentions that Spielmann wasn't invited to AVRO 1938 perhaps because he was jewish - if this was the reason(?), then I suppose Big Al(ekhine) wasn't the only anti-semite... Undecided
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #49 - 08/04/05 at 13:34:26
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Well, if both his parents were Armenian, then he should be Armenian too, but perhaps with a double nationality as some countries automatically gives away citizenship to those born there. But you still haven't revealed your source of information - hope it's not Ripley's Believe It or Not! Smiley


i got it from: http://www.chesscorner.com/worldchamps/petrosian/petrosian.htm

not very much info. but enough to verify that he was born in georgia.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #48 - 08/04/05 at 12:59:03
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Well, if both his parents were Armenian, then he should be Armenian too, but perhaps with a double nationality as some countries automatically gives away citizenship to those born there. But you still haven't revealed your source of information - hope it's not Ripley's Believe It or Not! Smiley
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #47 - 08/04/05 at 11:57:32
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I


Source? This sounds incredible to my ears, as -ian is a typical ending of Armenian names, (and -shvili of Georgian names). Not to mention the statue of Petrosian in Erevan and his status of Armenian folk hero.


I checked out Petrosian's childhood details. He was born in Tbilisi, Georgia to Armenian parents. I too thought it impossible that Tigran was georgian before this. But definitely he settled in Armenia later in life.

Oh! another typical georgian ending name is -dze
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #46 - 08/04/05 at 11:34:13
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I don't think we should judge anyone, especially not upon hearsay or on his reaction in a very difficult time in history.
Immediately after the war, there were many who took the chance of pointing out scapegoats to avoid their own actions being scrutinized. And many of those persecuted, were hardly morally guilty - for example women who had had relationships with german soldiers were also ostracized by their peers as well as their children...

Quote:
Petrosian was a Georgian who grew up in Tblisi, not Armenia.


Source? This sounds incredible to my ears, as -ian is a typical ending of Armenian names, (and -shvili of Georgian names). Not to mention the statue of Petrosian in Erevan and his status of Armenian folk hero.
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #45 - 08/04/05 at 11:29:15
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It cant be denied that prophylaxis IS effective but it definitely isnt pretty. I liken chess to my other favourite sport -football in that I firmly believe it should be played in a free flow attractive attacking style.

In the recent UEFA European Nations Championships the attractive attacking Czechs & Portuguese both lost to the Greeks who played football 'Petrosian style' - Closing down play, tight marking, impenetrable defense & hitting back when teams over reach themselves. Their football wasnt pretty but it was effective cos it won them the Cup! So much so that 'ugly football' is starting to be seen as the only way to go to avoid defeat even more so when the stakes are so high now. So much for Pele proclaiming football the beautiful game!

So i will still stand by this lack of 'positive' attitude argument on people like Petrosian(or the greek football team). This avoidance of defeat stance just kills the look & true spirit of chess (and football). That to me is weak. It is effective but.... the fruits of such an attitude is weak.

But what I found interesting about petrosian is that he was once upon a time an aggressor!! In that article (dunno where) it said that because he was such an aggressor he could sense out even the most subtle tactical/strategical implications of his opponents moves so keenly that he could straight away snuff it out effectively OTB.

But if it makes any of you petrosian fans out there feel better.... all that ive written  is just my personal opinion. Fischer did consider petrosian as one of the 10 greatest players of all time in 1970. I suppose Fischer's word carries more weight than mine. Wink

@smyslov-fan. You are right abt Tal. Its admirable how despite his illness & suffering he can still produce decent games against the best. But alas! its obvious all the hospitalisations & medical appointments etc also distracted his focus to a certain extent. So while he could still play galantly it wasnt enough to bring him to challenge for another championship seriously. For the spirit is willing but the flesh was weak. Sad Who knows what might have happened if he wasnt ill?? But the strength of his spirit to go on doing what he loves despite his suffering is indeed  something of virtue. Oh! Im very certain  that Fischer never played Lasker!

@MnB- I agree wth you about Lasker. I really couldnt believe it that he played Janovski twice!! Needless to say the guy was trashed! Lasker could have played capa 10 yrs earlier but didnt!
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #44 - 08/04/05 at 09:11:55
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MNb,

Petrosian was a Georgian who grew up in Tblisi, not Armenia.  His brother was drafted and presumed dead while the Nazis invaded the Caucuses.  The shock of his brother's death (which was misreported) killed his mother. His father also died during the war due to illness.  He reports that his best friend in 1941 had been evacuated from Kharkov.  In a very real sense, even though Tblisi itself was not overrun, his homeland was.

He claims that his style was informed by Nimzovich, Capablanca and his teacher, Ebralidze. Ebralidze believed in "the infallibility of strategic laws and could for hours seek a refutation of some attack or combination, if only, in his opinion, the position did not permit a "forcible" solution."  (The Games of Tigran Petrosian, Vol. 1(1991) p.17)  

He refused to rush into attacking positions even though the Soviet press berated his play regularly in the 1950s as being too stodgy.  A weaker person would almost certainly have caved into the pressure to play more "attractive" chess.

  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #43 - 08/04/05 at 08:41:30
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Taljechin,

We should judge a person within the context of the times in which they lived.  With that in mind, almost the entire chess community ostracized Alekhin after the war and Alekhin himself felt it necessary to come up with some weak and at least partially untruthful defenses for his actions (which is a generous description).  Yes, I'm sure he was under pressure.  But others who were under pressure managed to locate their moral compasses.

This does nothing to take away from his tremendous contributions to chess.  His greatest games collection still has a prominent place in my library and was one of the most influential books in my chess development.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #42 - 08/04/05 at 06:47:40
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Fair enough. But only two famous chessplayers wrote disgusting articles to please the nazi-rulers: Alekhine and Diemer.
Euwe at the other hand has helped Dutch jews to escape from nazi-prosecution.


Well, according to the rumours Diemer was a convinced nazi even after the war... And Fischer's current writings and speeches are at least as bad as Alekhine's, but Bobby hasn't much of an excuse at all, except possible insanity...

Btw, Korchnoi recently expressed the opinion that no one becomes really good in chess by being a nice guy.
- So, Euwe saving Jews during the war may in fact qualify him as by far the weakest world champion of them all! Wink
  
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MNb
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #41 - 08/04/05 at 06:28:31
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Fair enough. But only two famous chessplayers wrote disgusting articles to please the nazi-rulers: Alekhine and Diemer.
Euwe at the other hand has helped Dutch jews to escape from nazi-prosecution.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TalJechin
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #40 - 08/04/05 at 05:29:51
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As I remember it, Alekhine didn't avoid giving Capablanca a return match - he only set the same terms as Capa did, put up 10 000 in gold and we'll talk about it...

As for the nazi accusations, Alekhine did write some antisemitic pamplets and participated in nazi tournaments (like Stoltz, Mattisons and many more). But given that Nazi Germany wasn't very fond of slavs either, who knows for sure what kind of pressure Alekhine was under?

It's easy to judge in the safety of our current safety & stability - and conveniently forget that most of the civilised world 65 years ago would be clearly racist by today's standards. Nazi-Germany was certainly not first to single out some ethnic groups and persecute them in different ways.

In the US blacks weren't allowed to use the same bench, rest room or bus as white folks and a further 60 years back, chinese immigrants could be murdered practically with impunity as a white man could only be convicted on the testimony of another white man. But that was hardly Pillsbury's fault...
  
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #39 - 08/04/05 at 05:21:16
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Taljechin,


Regarding Tigran Petrosian:  He was the best blitz player in the Soviet Union yes, even better than my favorite player of the time, Mikhail Tal. Petrosian grew up during WWII and saw his homeland destroyed.  He was the consummate fighter, but hated losing more than he loved winning.  He believed that the World Champion was little more than the first among equals, and treated his opponents with perhaps too much respect.  This was definitely not weakness.Undecided


I think Petrosian's enormous talent manifested in sensing danger, prophylaxis and slowing down sharp line. The difference between him and Karpov is that, imho, Karpov could creat active play much better.
  

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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #38 - 08/03/05 at 23:08:09
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"Petrosian grew up during WWII and saw his homeland destroyed."
The homeland of Petrosjan was Armenia. The German nazi's came far, but not that far.
We should remember, that Petrosjan developed a sharp way to combat the Queen's Indian: 4.a3, which gave Kasparov so much success around 1980. Somewhere I have read, that Petrosjan turned to his ultra-solid defensive style, because he spoiled some attacking games. I do not know if this is true.

I do not know, if Alekhine holds the title for moral cowardice. From 1925 until 1929 Bogo had hardly worse tournament results than Capa: Moscow 1925, Bad Kissingen 1928, Berlin BSG 1928. Then in 1930 Capa more or less withdrew, while Alekhine proved his strength in San Remo etc. OK, the 1934 match was superfluous. But in 1935 Euwe was a logical choice. Eight years before Alekhine had won an informal match with the narrowest possible margin. In Zürich 1934 Euwe shared 2nd place behind Alekhine.
Numbers: Alekhine defended his title three times from 1927 until 1935. Capa waited six years after defeating Lasker.
Moral coward number one in my opinion was Lasker though. Around 1900 both Tarrasch and Pillsbury deserved a match. Instead Lasker simply did not defend his title from 1896 until 1907 and then chose Marshall, a Tarrasch, who already had lost his greatest strength and two times Janowsky. Lasker's only strong opponent was Schlechter and prompt Lasker could not win. And of course Lasker avoided Rubinstein between 1910 and 1914. No surprise, that Lasker holds the record in years.

Finally Alekhine was not the only collaborator. Bogo was member of the NSDAP and Keres did not object either to play for the nazi's.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #37 - 08/03/05 at 19:32:56
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Willempie,

Spassky did indeed lose to Karpov and Korchnoi in Candidates Matches.  Were Karpov and Korchnoi simply better than Spassky at his best ??? Korchnoi wasn't, but if you're right you have just made a very strong argument for Spassky being the weakest World Champion ever. 

Spassky was able to raise the level of his game occassionally after 1972 but was never the lion he was in the late 1960s. 

  
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #36 - 08/03/05 at 18:48:10
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Petrosian, Lasker, Taimanov and Spassky all lost badly to Fischer and never fully recovered.  Perhaps it was time to pass on the generational torch, or perhaps Fischer was so powerful that he demolished his opponents' spirits.  If you believe the latter (and Taimanov's Selected Games supports that thesis), then perhaps Spassky can be forgiven for losing his taste for the kill.  I dunno. Undecided

Spassky never recovered??
Run through the games of his match against Karpov in 74. I cant judge the level, but according to Timman and Spassky himself he played better than in 72. Spassky also said that that match was when he was at his best.
Not to mention that 3 years later he played again in the candidates final.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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