Normal Topic Odd idea in 6 Be3 closed Sicillian (Read 6587 times)
dsanchez
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Re: Odd idea in 6 Be3 closed Sicillian
Reply #9 - 03/04/06 at 00:28:02
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...Be6 might be one of those moves that tempts White into overthinking / overextending himself trying to find a crushing refutation where none exists.

In such cases sound, principled moves (such as your 8.Nf3/Nge2) may be the best "refutation."

I don't get many chances to play the Black side of a Closed Sicilian, or I'd give 7...Be6 a go  myself to see what happens.
  
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Martin Carpenterst(Guest)
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Re: Odd idea in 6 Be3 closed Sicillian
Reply #8 - 03/03/06 at 23:12:38
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Just to mention that 8 Qd2 d5!? 9 ed Nxd5 10 Bh6!? BxB!? 11 QxB Nd4 is a bit annoying and certainly highly obscure (especially after the truly absurd 12 Qg7!? Nxc2+!? 13 Kd1 Nde3+!?!? etc when almost anything could happen. Would need a lot of work to see what's going on. Plenty of more rational alternatives for both sides of course.). 
After ... 9 Bh6 BxB 10 QxB then Qb6/Qa5/d4 (^ Ne2 Qa5+ perhaps) all seem a little annoying. White's dark squares aren't happy.

A saner way to ignore d5 might be simply 8 Nf3/Nge2 and then after 8 .. d5 simply 9 Bg5 (or d2). Indeed there's a fair bit to be said for this.

I think the tempi are about equal here - h3 and Be6 are both pretty useless moves if black goes d4 (de is less ambitious but presumably fairly safe). d6 then d5 is a wasted tempo but so is Be3 -> g5.
  
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MNb
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Re: Odd idea in 6 Be3 closed Sicillian
Reply #7 - 03/03/06 at 02:12:27
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Well, the very odd 7.Qc1 has been played by the anything but odd players Pachman and Smyslov - the latter beat Bronstein with it in the USSRch of 1951. Anyhow, after 7.Qc1 Ng4 8.Bd2 Be6 9.Nge2 Black's cannot play d5.
  

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dsanchez
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Re: Odd idea in 6 Be3 closed Sicillian
Reply #6 - 03/02/06 at 23:08:26
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An interesting move!

A few thoughts:

7.h3 almost certainly has to be the main line, the idea being to prevent ...Ng4.

7.Qc1 looks very odd.  I find it hard to believe this is the answer.

Also, I'm not sure ...d5 is the same sort of panacea for Black as it is in the Open Sicilian.  The "French" setups involve ...e6 and ..d5 and White is okay.  In our line, we should note that Black has spent two tempi to get there.  In fact, one way to "punish" ...d5 might be just to leave the pawn alone.  Black has spent two tempi plus a third on a weird-looking bishop move.

9.Bxc5 probably is not too tempting to an experienced Closed Sicilain player who is probably much more interested in preserving this B for Bh6.

In fact, 9.Bh6 immediately is kind of interesting.

I think the move I'd play, though, is 9.ed when 9...Bxd5 10.Nxd5 or 9...Nxd5 10.Bh6

  
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Martin Carpenter(Guest)
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Re: Odd idea in 6 Be3 closed Sicillian
Reply #5 - 03/02/06 at 22:37:18
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A few concrete lines mostly when white trys to win c5. There are some lines where white can win a pawn without losing but they really don't seem at all safe. It's possible that there is some quiet line which gives white an edge although I'm not sure why they should. Obviously I might well be missing some stuff:

6 Be3 Nf6 7 h3 Be6!?

8 Nge2 d5!? 9 Bxc5 d4; 9 ed Bxd5!? (a real computer move this) 10 NxB NxN and then 11 Bxc5 Qa5+ is bad so say c3/o-o Nxe3 etc. 

Alternatively 9 ed Nxd5 10 Bxc5 Nxc3 11 NxN BxN+ 12 PxB Bd5!? ^ Qa5 etc. (11 PxN Bd5!? 12 f3 etc is miserable & black can have his pawn back on c3 if desired.).

8 Nf3 d5!? 9 Bxc5 Qa5!? (9 .. d4 10 Nce2 Qa5+ 11 b4 etc doesn't work) 10 Bd4 de 11 de Nxd4 (Rd8!?,o-o-o!?) 12 Qxd4 Rd8 etc - this isn't utterly clear but fun.

... 9 ed Nxd5 and Bxc5 gets met by Nxc3 ^ Qa5 & 10 Nxd5 Bxd5 11 Bxc5 by Qa5+. So say c3 = ish.

8 Qd2 (critical perhaps) d5!? 9 Bxc5 

and now 9 .. d4 10 Nce2 and 9 .. Qa5 10 ed Nxd5 11 Nxd5 Qxc5 11 Nc7+ x e6 are no good. So black has to go for:

9 .. de!? 10 de Qxd2+ (Qa5!? is more logical I'd think) 11 Kxd2 Nd7 12 Be3 Nde5 is a fair bit of fun if mildly speculative. (Junior predictably loves it.).

10 Nxe4 Nxe4 11 Bxe4 and then Bxb2/Qd7 seem ok as does: 11 .. Bd5!? 12 o-o-o when it's just possible that the truly absurd looking 12 .. Bxa2!? works.
(certainly 13 b3 doesn't seem to work after Rc8. I still struggle to believe this one though Smiley 12 .. f5!?/Rc8/o-o etc are all reasonable and sane).

If white decides to put an end to this d5 nonsense with 8 Nd5!? things can still get rather wierd.
eg 8 .. Bxd5!? 9 PxB Nb4 10 c4 Qa5!? 11 Kf1 which is certainly pretty odd. Or 8 .. h5!? taking advantage's of white inability to play Nf3 etc.
Black can also just castle but it doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the thing somehow Wink

It seems that it is probably possible to play like this after 7 Qc1 (7 .. Be6 ^ 8 .. d5) but white does get some extra Bh6 ideas cf 8 Nge2 d5 9 ed Nxd5 10 Bh6 o-o etc which seem to take a lot of the fun out it all.
Could try angling for a transposition via 7 .. Ng4 8 Bd2 Be6!? I suppose but I'm not sure if white will/should oblidge.
  
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Martin Carpenter(Guest)
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Re: Odd idea in 6 Be3 closed Sicillian
Reply #4 - 03/02/06 at 11:45:56
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7 Qc1 might be more accurate - I haven't checked it at all. My guess is that it might stop these ideas since it looks like it should be a little more useful than h3 if black plays for a really fast d5.

7 h3 seemed to be the dominant response to 6.. Nf6 from my database of TWIC's and the like but it certainly doesn't strike me as a very inspiring move.
(I don't really know much about the actual theory here.).
  
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Re: Odd idea in 6 Be3 closed Sicillian
Reply #3 - 03/02/06 at 02:10:04
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Isn't 7.Qc1 more precise? Or does Be6 work as good then?
  

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Martin Carpenter(Guest)
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Re: Odd idea in 6 Be3 closed Sicillian
Reply #2 - 03/01/06 at 16:06:16
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It is! Substitute either one of the Bg7's for a d6 and it all makes rather more sense Smiley
  
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Re: Odd idea in 6 Be3 closed Sicillian
Reply #1 - 03/01/06 at 14:56:00
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Very odd, moving your bishop to g7 twice...
  
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Martin Carpenter(Guest)
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Odd idea in 6 Be3 closed Sicillian
03/01/06 at 13:43:30
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Something interesting/amusing I discovered by accident. After: 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg7 5 d3 Bg7 6 Be3 Nf6 7 h3 Be6!?  it seems that black may well be able to play 8 .. d5!? after nearly every white move.
Certainly after Nf3/Nge2/Qd2 it seems to work out all right. Nd5 of course does suceed in stopping it Smiley

The original accident came when I played 8 .. d5 without noticing the c5 pawn was en prise then noticed the computer wasn't too bothered about losing it.... So I then investigated a bit.

As well as ideas to do with hitting the c5 bishop with Qa5/d4 to strand it (in fact dxe4 perhaps works better much of the time), there are sometimes some rather annoying long diagonal tricks after eg (iirc): 8 Qd2 d5!? 9 Bxc5 de 10 Nxe4 NxN 11 BxN Bd5!? when f5 is a rather real threat.
c5 also seems to come back on b2/c3 fairly often.

It's not impossible that white can somehow win a pawn and then somehow consolidate but it's certainly far from straightfoward. Is this a known idea? It certainly seems quite amusing at least Smiley
  
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