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Poll Question: What do you think about From's Gambit, 1.f4 e5?
bars   pie

Sound    
  10 (17.2%)
So messy that it's playable    
  15 (25.9%)
Objectively struggling against best play    
  22 (37.9%)
Unsound    
  7 (12.1%)
Dead    
  4 (6.9%)




Total votes: 58
« Created by: CraigEvans on: 03/20/06 at 09:46:13 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) From's Gambit - Current Opinion (Read 33267 times)
Uberdecker
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #24 - 09/19/07 at 22:01:59
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Dear Frendo,

 I discussed this option in the thread "Bird's".  1. f4 d6 ; 2. Ktc3 should not be answered by 2. ...e5?! 3. e4 ef ; 4. Bc4 when White has a "dream" KG or 2. ...d5 ; 3. e4, but either 2. ...Ktf6, 2. ...g6, 2. ...c5 or 2. ...a6!?, the latter most likely transposing to a favourable form of UD KP Defence (1. e4 d6 ; 2. d4 Ktf6 ; 3. Ktc3 a6) due to the Knight still being on -g8. 
Will try to post some more on this, 1. f4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 e5 and 1. Ktf3 f5 ; 2. d3 Ktc6 ; 3. d4 soon. A lot of discussions to catch up on.

Regards,
UD
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #23 - 09/19/07 at 21:39:13
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Saw another option for White (I'm not sure where but I think it was in one of Danielsen's games.) against 2...d6 (after 1.f4 of course).  White can try 1.f4 d6 2.Nc3!? e5 (2...d5!? 3.e3, and if 3...d5 then maybe 4.Qe2 following TalJechin's plan against the variation 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3, namely 2...Nc6 3.d4 e6 4.c4)Qe7.  Other moves could lead to Closed Sicilian positions.) 3.e4 exf4 4.Bc4 (safer and more successful I think than 4.d4 Qh4+ 5.Ke2).  I looked up 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.Nc3 in my old 1981 ECO and there was no mention of 3...exf4 and I didn't see it under the Bishop's gambit or Vienna Opening either.  Any thought's on this try?
  
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Sevenviolets
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #22 - 04/03/06 at 12:48:27
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1142847973/15#23 date=1144058771]I have to agree with MNb. All this rudeness and ego-stuff is highly tedious. If the Sevenviolets--Uberdeker "debate" is to continue, could it do so back-channel?[/quote]

Good point, Michael. I deleted all my nonsense posts here and I will try to not talk with Uberdeker any more. For safety reasons:)
« Last Edit: 04/04/06 at 01:12:28 by Sevenviolets »  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #21 - 04/03/06 at 10:06:11
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I have to agree with MNb. All this rudeness and ego-stuff is highly tedious. If the Sevenviolets--Uberdeker "debate" is to continue, could it do so back-channel?
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #20 - 04/03/06 at 09:54:49
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[quote author=Sevenviolets link=1142847973/15#24 date=1144051539]
Advantage (unlike "edge") means +/- and it is, with best play from both sides, a win. Needs only to be technically converted. Uberdeker, I hope, you "may come to understand this". [/quote]

This is once again pure sophistry and I suspect SevenViolets is just fishing for arguments without believing himself that they are justified.

+ = : slight advantage/edge/pull etc...
[u]+[/u] : large advantage
+ - : winning advantage

I sincerely hope that this puts an end to this uninteresting and inconstructive debate

MNb - By all means call me "Hubert Longtoe", although I don't quite catch the pun
  
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MNb
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #19 - 04/03/06 at 02:41:42
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@Uberdeker
"Self-Slayer"
Don't you think this joke has been long enough by now? I mean, it is about as funny as calling you Hubert Longtoe.
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #18 - 04/02/06 at 23:12:13
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I'm not sure this deserves an answer, but being a magnaminous fellow, I'll give one anyway.
Having "the advantage" in a given position does not guarantee a win after "best" play from both sides.
If you think about it long enough, SevenViolets, you may come to understand this.
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #17 - 04/02/06 at 16:53:48
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MNb - I'll start a thread in the "e4-e5" section so we can discuss the merits of the Fischer Defence. In my opinion, White should not have sufficient compensation in the lines you suggested, but I'm not excluding the possibility that he might draw with accurate play from both sides.

Self-Slayer - Your suggestion of 4. e4 g4 ; 5. Bc4 is very much in the spirit of the "Old Knights of the King's Gambit"! But modern defensive technique has made us skeptical of such generosity and I would happily grab your Knight with 5. ...gxf3.
The line you gave 1. f4 d6 ; 2. e4 e5?! ; 3. Bc4 ef is a very poor form of the Bishop's Gambit for Black.
Any counterplay based on ...d5 will come with loss of tempo and meanwhile White will retrieve his pawn with 4. d4 and Bxf4 (...g5 is met by h4). So [u]this[/u] line is the deviation, while 2. ...d5!? (Glenn Snow) and 2. ...Ktf6 are the correct answers. Hope you see what I mean...

As for you, SevenViolets, I had already mused at the fact that my junky suggestion might appeal to BDG fanatics such as yourself (although not OTB of course, as the KG is soooo scary), and I am proven right!
« Last Edit: 04/02/06 at 18:45:40 by Uberdecker »  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #16 - 04/02/06 at 12:37:34
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Uberdeker

In your line 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 g5 I did give you one suggestion for White: 4.e4 g4 5.Bc4 etc. Look careful and you will find it!
Discussing the Fischer defence to the KG does not belong here. I agree 100% with MNb's post. If you want to discuss the merits of 6...f5 it belongs in the Open games section.

Yes Black does not have to play ball after 1.f4 d6 2.e4. I have myself contemplated playing like this to coax White into the King's Gambit. I just though it unnecesary to point out every deviation for both sides and offered one line that could possibly lead to the Bishop's gambit. Next time I will make sure to point out every line that deviates. E.g.: 1.f4 d6 2.e4 a6 also does not lead to the Bishop's Gambit, nor does 1.f4 d6 2.e4 c6, nor ... stop. I think you get the point.
1.f4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 is just a position. Playable for both sides. If I had the White pieces after 1.f4 d6 I would definitely prefer 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.e4. But this is jus as much a personal preference.
  
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MNb
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #15 - 04/01/06 at 22:02:02
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"The Fisher Defence Black has the advantage, especially in the line 4. d4 g5"

This is nonsense too. In some KG threads I have pointed out 4.d4 g5 5.Nc3 leading to sufficient (but not more) compensation and 4.Nc3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 f6 7.Nh3 gxh3 8.Qh5+ Kd7 9.Qf5+ Ke8 draw.
As this really belongs to the Open Section, I am curious to read there how Uberdeker will prove an advantage for Black in these lines.
In the meantime I state: 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.e4 exf4 =.
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #14 - 04/01/06 at 19:03:30
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[quote author=Sevenviolets link=1142847973/0#14 date=1143899741]

White should play simply1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.e4! transposes to an advantageous line of King´s Gambit. This line scores almost
80% for white in CorrDatabase 2004. Your line is refuted  ;)
[/quote]

This is utter rubbish! Until the opposite is proven, in The Fisher Defence Black has the advantage, especially in the line 4. d4 g5 ; 
5. h4 g4 ; 6. Ktg1 f5!?
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #13 - 04/01/06 at 18:08:52
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1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.e4 and now 3...exf4 transposes to the Fischer Variation (I'm not the first to point this out btw.)  Has the Fischer Variation really been refuted?  I personally would rather be White but I'm hardly objective on such things.  Smiley
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #12 - 04/01/06 at 11:35:59
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[quote author=Sevenviolets link=1142847973/0#11 date=1143825854]
For Uberdeker: 1. f4 d6 2. Nf3 e5 3. fxe5 g5 4. exd6 Bxd6 seems to transpose to standard lines. 
[/quote]

I wish people would read the previous posts so that repeating oneself would not be necessary. The whole idea was 4. ed g4.

[quote]2...Nf6 looks like a good enough move (after 1.f4 d6 2.e4) but White looks OK (meaning not better) after 3.e5.  As I've mentioned in other posts I think 2...d5 is also a good move for Black.[/quote]

3. e5 transposes to a sideline of the Alekhine after 3. ...Ktd5 ; 4. d4 Bf5. Now 5. c4 can be met by 5. ...Ktb5 instead of the usual ...Ktb6, so Black should be happy with this.

Glenn's 2. ...d5 is akin to my idea of 2. ...Ktf6 ; 3. Ktc3 d5 and also looks satisfactory.

Now when are you lot going to refute 1; f4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 e5 ; 3. fe g5 ; 4. ed g4 ; 5. dc Qxc7 ; 6. Ktd4 Bd6  ?
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #11 - 03/31/06 at 20:42:58
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Quote:
But 2. e4 cannot really be called "aiming for the Bishop's Gambit", as Black would have to be very complacent to accept.  The right move (and again, I'm only repeating myself) is 2. ...Ktf6.


2...Nf6 looks like a good enough move (after 1.f4 d6 2.e4) but White looks OK (meaning not better) after 3.e5.  As I've mentioned in other posts I think 2...d5 is also a good move for Black.
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #10 - 03/31/06 at 16:53:24
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Dear Self-Slayer (don't be mad, I just can't get over it!),

As you have pointed out yourself in an earlier post, 1.f4 d6 ; 2. e4 e5?! is inferior for Black, and the right answer is indeed 
3. Bc4.
But 2. e4 cannot really be called "aiming for the Bishop's Gambit", as Black would have to be very complacent to accept.  The right move (and again, I'm only repeating myself) is 2. ...Ktf6. 
If White replies 3. Ktc3, he would have to be happy with both a transposition to the Austrian Attack vs Pirc/Czech/Lion/Neo-Philidor/UDKP and 3. ...d5!?
It might suit some people's repertoire but in a way it kills the whole purpose of 1. f4.

                                                            Regards,
                                                                Hubert

To the rest of you :

When are you going to refute 1. f4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 e5 ; 3. fe g5??   I'm waiting!
  
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