Poll
Poll Question: What do you think about From's Gambit, 1.f4 e5?
bars   pie

Sound    
  10 (17.2%)
So messy that it's playable    
  15 (25.9%)
Objectively struggling against best play    
  22 (37.9%)
Unsound    
  7 (12.1%)
Dead    
  4 (6.9%)




Total votes: 58
« Created by: CraigEvans on: 03/20/06 at 09:46:13 »
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) From's Gambit - Current Opinion (Read 33275 times)
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #39 - 09/29/07 at 07:10:02
Post Tools
Yesterday I had to play in our "city championship" (there are two clubs in Mechelen) against a player known for being an adept of the Bird. As I knew he does not have much time for studying the opening theory, I went on for the From gambit. Here is the game:
1. f4 e5 2. fxe5 d6 3. exd6 Bxd6 4. Nf3 g5 5. g3 g4 6. Nh4 Ne7 7. Nc3 Ng6
8. Nxg6 hxg6 9. Ne4 Bf5 (not the best, my computer sees more in f5) 10. Nf2 Nc6 11. Bg2 Qe7 12. Bxc6+ bxc6 13. d3 O-O-O
14. e4 Bxe4 15. Nxe4 Bxg3+ 16. Kf1?? (Ke2 and the game is still unclear but I prefer black) Qxe4
and white gave up a few moves later
http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=2kr3r/p1p2p2/2p3p1/8/4q1p...

The point is that my opponent is quite weak in defending and that was  another reason why I sought an opening that could set him under pressure. 16.Kf1 is certainly more the result of my psychological approach than of brilliant chess.
But in each case, and that what I wanted to say, the From gambit cannot be considered to be such a good weapon. Even a relatively unprepared played can come from the opening without much damage.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #38 - 09/21/07 at 01:37:07
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 09/20/07 at 12:35:08:

Unrelatedly, I believe that this From is the very Dane for whom the Danish Gambit is named.  Is that correct?

Well, one of the Danes. From might have been kibitzing when Lindehn-Maczuski was played in Paris 1863, as he has lived there. Otherwise Lindehn has told him in Kopenhagen 1862.
Other Danish connections are the corr games Kopenhagen-Uppsala,1875 (From probably was involved), Nielsen-Van der Linde,1875 and Sörensen-Leffler, 1875. I have read somewhere that the Danish wrote one or more articles on this gambit.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #37 - 09/21/07 at 00:08:45
Post Tools
[quote author=Frendo link=1142847973/30#35 date=1190323652]I believe Uberdeker is referring to 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 g5!?  
[/quote]

Not specifically. I must still seriously analyse the contributions players of the White side have submitted in the thread "Bird's" (and retrieve some of my own analysis) before coming to any conclusions in this line.
More generally, I simply meant to say that 1. f4 d6 ; 2. Ktf3 e5 is less open to question than 1. ...e5 2. fe d6 since 3. ed is considered more critical than 3. Ktf3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Black_Widow
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 164
Location: Veenendaal
Joined: 03/04/05
Gender: Male
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #36 - 09/20/07 at 23:50:55
Post Tools
Quote:
Quote:
Quote from Uberdeker:
Although it may not be fully sound either, the Deferred From should in principle be superior to the standard form. 
Quote from thibdb13:
Do you think something like 1. f4-e5 2.fe4-Nc6 3.Nc3-d6?


I believe Uberdeker is referring to 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 g5!?  

I think 1...d5 is one of the most correct responses to the Bird as playing a reversed Dutch just doesn't seem to lend itself to fighting for a theoretical advantage.  Despite the fact that I frequently comment on offbeat openings here until someone covinces me otherwise I believe only 1.e4, 1.d4, 1.c4, and 1.Nf3 can realistically fight for an opening edge.  Having said that, 1.f4 d5 is still a decent choice for a Dutch expert to play as it's one of those dynamically balanced openings.  I bascially feel the same about 1.f4 c5, 1.f4 g6, and 1.f4 Nf6, and even 1.f4 f5 if handled correctly by both players (of course there are other playable options).

From my experience, 1 f4 d5 is roughly equal, although black needs to know what he is doing. With all others white can play for an edge, just as with 1 e4 or 1 d4.

1. f4-e5 2.fe4-Nc6 3.Nc3 ?! I think this is not a good move. 1 f4 e5 2 e4 ?! I think this is not a good move either, although a lot of people have a soft spot for playing a kings gambit. 

1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 g5!? Is a tricky try, but not a serious challange for white in the From.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #35 - 09/20/07 at 21:27:32
Post Tools
Quote:
Quote from Uberdeker:
Although it may not be fully sound either, the Deferred From should in principle be superior to the standard form. 
Quote from thibdb13:
Do you think something like 1. f4-e5 2.fe4-Nc6 3.Nc3-d6?


I believe Uberdeker is referring to 1.f4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 g5!?  

I think 1...d5 is one of the most correct responses to the Bird as playing a reversed Dutch just doesn't seem to lend itself to fighting for a theoretical advantage.  Despite the fact that I frequently comment on offbeat openings here until someone covinces me otherwise I believe only 1.e4, 1.d4, 1.c4, and 1.Nf3 can realistically fight for an opening edge.  Having said that, 1.f4 d5 is still a decent choice for a Dutch expert to play as it's one of those dynamically balanced openings.  I bascially feel the same about 1.f4 c5, 1.f4 g6, and 1.f4 Nf6, and even 1.f4 f5 if handled correctly by both players (of course there are other playable options).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #34 - 09/20/07 at 20:55:58
Post Tools
[quote author=Uberdeker link=1142847973/30#33 date=1190314539]Although it may not be fully sound either, the Deferred From should in principle be superior to the standard form.[/quote]
Do you think something like 1. f4-e5 2.fe4-Nc6 3.Nc3-d6?
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #33 - 09/20/07 at 18:55:39
Post Tools
Although it may not be fully sound either, the Deferred From should in principle be superior to the standard form.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #32 - 09/20/07 at 17:31:47
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 09/20/07 at 12:35:08:
There are four reasons why I don't play the From.  Here they are in order of decreasing importance.

1.  I doubt its soundness.

2.  It wastes the chance to play 1...d5, which is an excellent move and confers good winning chances.

3.  I assume that the typical 1.f4 specialist is quite prepared for a From.

4.  Although I am normally happy to play against it, I don't always want to allow a King's Gambit.

Unrelatedly, I believe that this From is the very Dane for whom the Danish Gambit is named.  Is that correct?


I think your first reason is the most important. I started to play the Bird in July and now I am very happy when my opponent plays the From (in blitz or rapid, my percentage is about 90%). Last week in a rapid tournament I totally outplayed a player rated 500 elo points higher (2300). He surely underestimated me but it is not normal that a player of my level so easily outplays someone rated 500 points higher. There is certainly something wrong with the From. (The Mestel variation might be better but I never encountered it till today) 
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #31 - 09/20/07 at 12:35:08
Post Tools
There are four reasons why I don't play the From.  Here they are in order of decreasing importance.

1.  I doubt its soundness.

2.  It wastes the chance to play 1...d5, which is an excellent move and confers good winning chances.

3.  I assume that the typical 1.f4 specialist is quite prepared for a From.

4.  Although I am normally happy to play against it, I don't always want to allow a King's Gambit.

Unrelatedly, I believe that this From is the very Dane for whom the Danish Gambit is named.  Is that correct?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #30 - 09/20/07 at 09:39:43
Post Tools
I'm not sure where to post this, since all these lines have a knack for transposition or near-transposition, but I was just thinking that 1. Ktf3 f5 ; 2. d3 Ktc6 as discussed in another thread can be answered by 3. a3, analogously to the line above. Again, it's a reactive idea, so probably does not promise much advantage if played with colours reversed. Still, worth mentionning I think.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #29 - 09/20/07 at 09:28:39
Post Tools
Quote:
But the line 2. ...a6 ; 3. e4 b5 ; 4. Ktf3 (4. d4 Bb7 ; 5. Bd3 is more ambitious but of course entails greater risk) Bb7 ; 5. d3 Ktbd7 is not yet a closed Sicilian as 6. g3 can still be met with 6. ...e5 and a strange Philidor-type position.


Yes a closed Sicilian isn't mandatory for either side.  There seem to be a few playable deviations for either side and I really don't know what setup is best for either colour.  Tests are needed.   Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #28 - 09/20/07 at 06:37:09
Post Tools
Sorry Frendo. I was thinking of a completely different position when I suggested 2. Ktc3 d5 ; 3. e4. Indeed, 3. ...de is good for Black as I briefly mentionned when considering 2. e4 d5. Now I'm starting to give different assessments of the same position depending on the move-order! 
So 2. ...d5 needs to be investigated, but after 3. e3, Black should be wary of going in for 3. ...c5, since he is now 2 (!) tempi down on the White side of the UD QP Defence. Admitedly, it is a very reactive defence, so this may be playable.
Regarding the rest, yes, there are many transpositional possibilities depending on Black's various second moves (2. ...Ktf6, 2. ...g6, 2. ...c5 etc)
But the line 2. ...a6 ; 3. e4 b5 ; 4. Ktf3 (4. d4 Bb7 ; 5. Bd3 is more ambitious but of course entails greater risk) Bb7 ; 5. d3 Ktbd7 is not yet a closed Sicilian as 6. g3 can still be met with 6. ...e5 and a strange Philidor-type position.
« Last Edit: 09/20/07 at 08:02:02 by Uberdecker »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #27 - 09/19/07 at 23:05:42
Post Tools
Yes, I was just about to post you suggestion of 3...e5! as well.  For what it's worth it looks like a good move to me.  I now think White should prefer 3.e4, 3.Nf3, or perhaps 3.d3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #26 - 09/19/07 at 23:01:07
Post Tools
Yes, I just had a look. My analysis ran as follows : "3. g3?! e5!". Typically thorough treatment.  And it may not even be correct!!
By the way, there are two posts in that thread filled with serious material to which I never responded. Only just back and allready feeling overwhelmed again. Maybe I should just stick to Diplomacy...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: From's Gambit - Current Opinion
Reply #25 - 09/19/07 at 22:33:41
Post Tools
Dear Uberdeker,

Quick response on that one!  I had forgotten about the other thread.  I did do a search for 1.f4 d6 2.Nc3 but didn't try "Ktc3".  I'll have to remember to try other forms next time.  I agree that 2...e5 tranposes to a good form of the KG, but I don't particulary care for 1.f4 d6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 because of 3...dxe4 which looks pretty good for Black to me.  2...g6 and 2...c5 don't appear to have much independent value to me.  White would probably continue in Rev. Closed Sicilian, Grand Prix, Rev. Leningrad, or Rev. Ilyin-Zhenevsky fashion.  As for 1.f4 d6 2.Nc3 a6!?, of course White has many playable options (for example 3.e4 followed by d3 looks pretty comfortable to me) but more interesting to me seems 3.g3!?.  I guess I need to look at the other thread because this seems like something I or perhaps someone else has already suggested!?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo