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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Black's best against 9.0-0-0 (Read 51655 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #53 - 12/03/06 at 22:03:26
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If you want good winning chances with Black against 1.e4 right now I'd recommend the Dragadorf.  I imagine it still has a lot of surprise value at club value and Black so far has scored very well when White has left out Bc4 (and he's done quite well against Bc4 methods too!).  There even seems to be a few valid methods of playing the defence (delayed castling, Nbd7 before b5, early ...h5).

The only possible practical problem I can think of is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3, since Black usually delays moving his queen-knight or develops it to d7.  Black might have to play like Nadjorf players with 2...d6 or be comfortable with 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e5.  Then again I think there is an thread here on the forum that argues that Black has good alternatives in the Accelerated Dragon to transposing to the main-line Dragon.(?)
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #52 - 12/01/06 at 17:34:45
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parisestmagique wrote on 12/01/06 at 10:44:56:
For me playing the Dragon is connected with taking a lot of risks and must be rewarded with an interesting game and chances to win. But against 9.000 i liked very much to play 9.000 Bd7 but i had to trust Golubev analysis it's almost +- after good play by white, so i was just wandering if someone had new ideas for Black in the d5 line. Here Eric Moscow told than an early Rb8 was ok for Black but chalenged with Fritz variations the theorical discution stopped here...


Well, I'll let this topic drop after this post, but the 9...Bd7 and 14...Rb8 lines aren't really the ones which come to mind when I think of the mainline theory for 9.0-0-0.  If you are really looking for something off-beat to play, 8...Bd7 (suggested by Martin and dicussed elsewhere) may deserve a look -- I have no idea what the state of play is in that line, but I think there are some threads you can search for here on the topic.

But I'm not sure why you are surprised to see that when Black is "taking a lot of risks" his play is sometimes refuted.  Moreover, if you want to play a true sideline, you probably have to improve upon published analysis -- that's usually the point: if everyone thought the line was good for Black, it wouldn't be so rare.

Best of luck.
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #51 - 12/01/06 at 13:51:26
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parisestmagique wrote on 12/01/06 at 10:44:56:
Dearing's book (not noticed for his pessimism about his beloved opening, even if now he plays the Modern !)


Isn't the Modern just the Hyper-Hyper-Accelerated Dragon  Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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parisestmagique
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #50 - 12/01/06 at 10:44:56
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You are right, as a Najdorf and Modern player for 20 years and a recent Dragon convert i am sometimes pessimist about black's chances in this new opening for me. For me playing the Dragon is connected with taking a lot of risks and must be rewarded with an interesting game and chances to win. But against 9.000 i liked very much to play 9.000 Bd7 but i had to trust Golubev analysis it's almost +- after good play by white, so i was just wandering if someone had new ideas for Black in the d5 line. Here Eric Moscow told than an early Rb8 was ok for Black but chalenged with Fritz variations the theorical discution stopped here... In the Golubev game, if you look in Dearing's book (not noticed for his pessimism about his beloved opening, even if now he plays the Modern !) he says "19.Qf2 Nf4 is also bad for Black 20.BxB NxB 21.Bd6 Qb6 22.Rd2 Rad8 23.QxQb6! axQ 24.Be7! +/ Psakhis-Komljenovic Andorra 1994.
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #49 - 12/01/06 at 04:12:14
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One expects a book for White to end its lines with +=.

Many suggestions have been made, and some of these "+=" positions are sufficiently complex that an assessment like that has little meaning beyond personal preference -- and if one doesn't want to play the positions which result from 9.0-0-0, perhaps a change of repertoire is in order.  MNb will suggest the accelerated dragon, Paris will complain about the bind, I will mention that I think Black is fine etc.  (Or, one can work out some new lines which one does find satisfactory.)

At the end of the day, it seems like this is what is troubling Paris -- it is not that Black lacks continuations, simply continuations which he finds suitable.

I don't have the new edition, and so if Golubev has some new lines which refute Black's traditional play, that is fine -- post what you think is problematic, and maybe someone who plays that line will have an answer.  But I suspect that this isn't really the case.
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #48 - 11/30/06 at 18:21:08
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Perhaps this game should make you think instead of repeating the same statement over and over again:

[Event "ROM-chT div-A"]
[Site "Predeal"]
[Date "2006.11.04"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Delchev,Aleksander"]
[Black "Golubev,Mihail"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "B76"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 
9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Re8 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7 
17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Nf4 20.Bxe6 Nxe6 21.Bd6 Qb6 22.Rd2 Rd7 23.c3 Rad8 24.Rhd1 Qxf2 
25.Rxf2 f5 26.gxf6 Bf8 27.Rfd2 Bh6 1/2

By the way, in the end position I think black is better!
Do you still play the dragon, paris, or why do you whine every time how bad it is and that white is better? If you want to play it you need some confidence!  Smiley
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #47 - 11/30/06 at 09:19:54
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"Experts against the Sicilian" 2nd version is out and Black has still not found a attractive way of meeting 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.000 ! += Golubev ... Any new ideas ?
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #46 - 10/22/06 at 17:01:36
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Today I looked at this game little closer and Fritz 9 indicates that 21 __ Rxd3 22 cxd3 Qd4 gives black good play for the exchange (according to Fritz 9). I also noticed that 20 __ Rad8 is a novelty since is is not mentioned in Fritz 9 opening book.
But that novelty is not a good one since white can improve earlyer and 21 h5 seems to give white a large advantage.
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #45 - 10/21/06 at 19:43:47
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If black wants to play the Nxc3 variation he needs to improve on this game played today.
Since I play e5 instead of Nxc3 I haven’t analysed this game.
I am not sure if the rating is swedish rating or ELO rating, I took is from a live broadcast site.

[Event "Elitserien 06/07"]
[Site "Stockholm"]
[Date "2006.10.21"]
[White "GM Tom Wedberg, WASA SK."]
[Black "IM Rickard Winsnes, SS MANHEM."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B76"]
[WhiteElo "2501"]
[BlackElo "2394"]
[PlyCount "83"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 Nxc3 13. Qxc3 Bh6+ 14. Be3 Bxe3+ 15. Qxe3 Qb6 16. Qxe7 Be6 17. Bd3 Bxa2 18.
h4 Rfe8 19. Qf6 Qe3+ 20. Rd2 Rad8 21. Qg5 Qxg5 22. hxg5 Bd5 23. Rdd1 Re5 24. f4
Re3 25. Bc4 Rg3 26. Bxd5 cxd5 27. Rd2 Rc8 28. Rxd5 Rxg2 29. Rd2 Rxd2 30. Kxd2
Kg7 31. b3 Rc7 32. c4 f6 33. Kc3 fxg5 34. fxg5 Rc5 35. b4 Rxg5 36. Ra1 Rg3+ 37.
Kd4 h5 38. Rxa7+ Kf6 39. Rh7 Rb3 40. Kc5 Kg5 41. b5 h4 42. b6 1-0

  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #44 - 09/11/06 at 16:15:11
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About Rxd1 you are right, it is a draw. I didnt analyse long (never even checked that move) and Fritz indicated that there was a win by force but it was not. and yes Bxg6 looks stronger (didt look at this etiher).
« Last Edit: 09/11/06 at 20:05:24 by bragesjo »  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #43 - 09/11/06 at 13:36:49
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bragesjo wrote on 09/10/06 at 10:58:46:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 Nxc3 13. Qxc3 Bh6+ 14. Be3 Bxe3+ 15. Qxe3 Qb6 16. Qxe7 Be6 17. Qa3 Rad8 18.
Bd3 Rd5 19. Rhe1 Ra5 20. Qc3 Rxa2 21. b3 Ra5 22. Kb2 {Golubev and Rogozenko
thinks that white has the better endning, no more mores are given.} Rb8 {
then the thematical} 23. Rxe6 fxe6 24. Bc4 Rd5 25. Qe1 Kf7 26. Bxd5 cxd5 27.
Qe5 {Fritz thinks the position is 0.00 but that is Fritz} Rc8 28. Rd4


Position after 22. Kb2.

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=5rk1/p4p1p/1qp1b1p1/r7/8/...

In your line, after 22... Rb8 23.Rxe6 fxe6 24. Bc4 Rd5 25.Qe1, 25... Rxd1 seems to draw on the spot. Instead I think white can get some edge with either 25.Bxd5 cxd5 26.h4 or 25.Re1 Re8 26.Bxd5 (26.Re4) 26... cxd5 27.h4 Qf2 28. Ra1. 

Even better, instead of 24.Bc4, may be 24.Bxg6 Qc7 (24... Rd5 25.Bd3) 25.Be4 c5 26. Rd5 {better than 26.Qf6 which draws in the end when white loses the queenside pawns} 26... Qg7 (26... h6 27.Re5 Qg7 28.Bd3) 27.Qxg7 (27.Re5) 27... Kxg7 28.Rg5.

parisestmagique wrote on 09/11/06 at 10:14:20:
Yes, it's not easy, Black has to be careful with this threat to sacrifice on e6. Maybe after 22.Kb2 Rc5 holds after 23.Qf6 Bd5 24.Rd2 Ra5 25.Rde2 Be6 26.RxBe6 fxR 27.Qxe6+ Kh8.


I suspect white can get an edge with instead 24.Be4 or 24.Re2

In general, I think black has three long term thematic problems in the position after 22.Kb2: The weak pawn on the a-file, the risk of Rxe6 when good, and white kingside expansion with h4-h5, inducing an extra weakness in black's camp. The question is if white can suppress black's counterplay against the white king to take advantage of this in the long term, and avoid exhanges that makes the position drawish.

I think the right way for black to go is placing the a5 rook on d5, which kind of forces matters. Question is if 22... Rc5 23.Qf6 should be inserted. My analysis suggest that 22...Rd5 is OK, but 22... Rc5 should also suffer:

22... Rc5 23.Qf6 Rd5 {instead of 23... Bd5} 24.Rxe6 (24.h4 c5 {may be a tiny bit better for white}) 24... fxe6 25.Qxe6+ Kh8 26.Bc4 Ra5 27.f4 Qc5 28.g4 g5 29.Rd7 gxf4 30.Rxh7+ Kxh7 31.Bd3+ Rf5 32.Bxf5+ Kg7, and anything but a draw seems unlikely.
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #42 - 09/11/06 at 10:14:20
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Yes, it's not easy, Black has to be careful with this threat to sacrifice on e6. Maybe after 22.Kb2 Rc5 holds after 23.Qf6 Bd5 24.Rd2 Ra5 25.Rde2 Be6 26.RxBe6 fxR 27.Qxe6+ Kh8.
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #41 - 09/10/06 at 10:58:46
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parisestmagique wrote on 09/08/06 at 08:32:17:
Does someone knows what Golubev or other experts says about this line ? it looks very solid even if i presume that Black will not win a lot of games with it but has very good chance to hold :
6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxN 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 BxB+ 15.QxB Qb6 16.Qxe7 Be6 17.Qa3 Rad8 18.Bd3 Rd5 19.Rhe1 Ra5 20.Qc3 Rxa2 21.b3 Ra5 =


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 Nxc3 13. Qxc3 Bh6+ 14. Be3 Bxe3+ 15. Qxe3 Qb6 16. Qxe7 Be6 17. Qa3 Rad8 18.
Bd3 Rd5 19. Rhe1 Ra5 20. Qc3 Rxa2 21. b3 Ra5 22. Kb2 {Golubev and Rogozenko
thinks that white has the better endning, no more mores are given.} Rb8 {
then the thematical} 23. Rxe6 fxe6 24. Bc4 Rd5 25. Qe1 Kf7 26. Bxd5 cxd5 27.
Qe5 {Fritz thinks the position is 0.00 but that is Fritz} Rc8 28. Rd4 

  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #40 - 09/08/06 at 21:35:52
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parisestmagique wrote on 09/08/06 at 08:32:17:
Does someone knows what Golubev or other experts says about this line ? it looks very solid even if i presume that Black will not win a lot of games with it but has very good chance to hold :
6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxN 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 BxB+ 15.QxB Qb6 16.Qxe7 Be6 17.Qa3 Rad8 18.Bd3 Rd5 19.Rhe1 Ra5 20.Qc3 Rxa2 21.b3 Ra5 =


I agree, it looks interesting and overall black does not seem to be any worse than in the lines after 12 Nxd5 exd5 13 Qxd5 etc. 

I agree with your line up to 17 Qa3. Black should be quite OK against other white moves at move 17. Diagram after 17 Qa3:

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r4rk1/p4p1p/1qp1b1p1/8/8/...

After 17...Rad8, I suggest here two possible improvements for white in your line:

18.Bd3 Rd5 19.b3 Rfd8 20.Rde1 c5 21.Bc4 Rd2 22.Bxe6 fxe6 23.g3

18.Re1 Rd5 19.Bc4 Ra5 20.Qc3 Bxc4 21.Qxc4 Rb8 22.b3 Rxa2 23.Re7 Rf8 24.Qc3 

With perhaps a slight advantage for white in both lines. 

Alternatively, black can also try 17...Rfd8. In any case, white does not have much.
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #39 - 09/08/06 at 08:32:17
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Does someone knows what Golubev or other experts says about this line ? it looks very solid even if i presume that Black will not win a lot of games with it but has very good chance to hold :
6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxN 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 BxB+ 15.QxB Qb6 16.Qxe7 Be6 17.Qa3 Rad8 18.Bd3 Rd5 19.Rhe1 Ra5 20.Qc3 Rxa2 21.b3 Ra5 =
  
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