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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Slav & Meran (Read 5211 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Slav & Meran
Reply #10 - 06/29/06 at 10:47:15
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Kyle,

I was merely suggesting that Black has to know what to do against 3.d5.  Because it is so rare, White would probably get a nice advantage against anyone who is unfamiliar with the move.  As I stated, it's interesting.  But I would probably develop a piece rather than push the pawn, too.

In other words, you're exactly right that theoretically, it shouldn't be a big deal.  I'll try to respond more fully in the near future.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Slav & Meran
Reply #9 - 06/29/06 at 04:57:24
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/29/06 at 04:16:23:
BTW:  One problem of reaching the Semi-Slav via 1...Nf6 could be move order.  For instance:

A:  1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5?! (?) is probably just bad for Black.

B:  1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6!? allows 3.d5!? which is probably good for White, but at least it's interesting.

C:  1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 (the best and most obvious move for trying to transpose into the Semi-Slav without playing 1...d5) allows White to play a number of good moves that may throw off your opening plans.  White could play 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 which wouldn't be a problem for Black.

But White could also play 3.g3 (the Catalan) or 3.Bg5 which would eliminate the Meran from your list of options.  But since White can avoid the Meran most of the time anyway...

In other words, as is usual in chess, avoiding certain lines by playing slightly unusual move orders runs the risk of playing into other lines that you may not be ready to meet at all.



I'm curious about your point B, because I'm not aware of anything indicating that 3. d5 is "good for White."  I recall ECO giving 3...b5 as a satisfactory reply (leading to "compensation for the material," I believe).  In one database I checked, 3. d5 was played in about 5% of the games that reached that position; numerous GMs (Kasparov, Kramnik, Ivanchuk, Gelfand, Gulko, Milov, Avrukh etc.) declined to play it. 
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Slav & Meran
Reply #8 - 06/29/06 at 04:16:23
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BTW:  One problem of reaching the Semi-Slav via 1...Nf6 could be move order.  For instance:

A:  1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5?! (?) is probably just bad for Black.

B:  1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6!? allows 3.d5!? which is probably good for White, but at least it's interesting.

C:  1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 (the best and most obvious move for trying to transpose into the Semi-Slav without playing 1...d5) allows White to play a number of good moves that may throw off your opening plans.  White could play 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 which wouldn't be a problem for Black.

But White could also play 3.g3 (the Catalan) or 3.Bg5 which would eliminate the Meran from your list of options.  But since White can avoid the Meran most of the time anyway...

In other words, as is usual in chess, avoiding certain lines by playing slightly unusual move orders runs the risk of playing into other lines that you may not be ready to meet at all.

  
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woofwoof
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Re: Slav & Meran
Reply #7 - 06/29/06 at 02:19:17
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MNb wrote on 06/29/06 at 01:41:48:
Ad 4) In case you play the Caro-Kann (I have forgotten), why not 1...c6 ?


Nope. Never played CKs before. Its either Sicilians, 1...e5s or some rare Alekhines
  

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MNb
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Re: Slav & Meran
Reply #6 - 06/29/06 at 01:41:48
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Ad 2) Yes. White's gambit idea usually is to allow b7-b5 and occupy the centre with e2-e4 at once. Then play will have some similarities with ...g5 lines of the KG Accepted.

Ad 4) In case you play the Caro-Kann (I have forgotten), why not 1...c6 ?
  

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Re: Slav & Meran
Reply #5 - 06/28/06 at 15:31:09
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Thanks for replies so far Smiley

Ok, referring to Inn's overview (good job! Cheesy)

1) looking at the lines where black plays dxc4 & follows up with b5; wouldnt this be considered a QGA Huh That sure looks like playing a QGA in typical KG style!! So slav & semi slav can be both a QGA or a QGD system, yes?

2) Given that there are lines where white allows dxc4 & some where white disallows the said move, that means the c4 pawn isnt really a gambit in the literal sense isnt it? It only becomes one when white allows it to be taken. Contrast to KG where it is defintely up for grabs.

3) In terms of active piece play and a freedom of movement, how do these slavs/semi-slavs compare to the semi-tarrasch which ive used from time to time? Would it suit me as a sharpish positional player? Any particular variation to recommend? Or I'm just better off with my semi tarraschs & KIDs

4) Ive always opened with 1...ktf6 against 1.d4, as it gives me the flexibility of choice betn a semi-tarrasch, Cambridge Springs (easily avoided with 3...a3) or  an Indian/Benoni-whatever the moods decide. How feasible is it to strive for a semi-slav by 1st playing 1...ktf6, or its just best to play 1...d5?

Again, my apologies if these questions sound rather silly. Embarrassed  Thanks


  

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Re: Slav & Meran
Reply #4 - 06/27/06 at 11:44:51
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Hello,

The Meran is a particular variation of the semi-slav, first played by Rubinstein, at least in top level chess, in 20's or probably earlier. (The line mentioned by Inn2 and others, with a6, intending quick c5. Nowdays, Bb7 (Wade variation) is more common, but can transpose to same positions.)

Bye John S
  
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Re: Slav & Meran
Reply #3 - 06/27/06 at 11:32:56
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Good overwiev, Inn2!

Quote:
The Slav Marshall is theoretically the most dangerous for Black.


Strangely enough I remember IM Breder saying during an online lesson at playchess.com that this is completely harmless if black knows how to play.
So what is the truth here? What line does cause black theoretical problems?

Concerning the Slav setups I always felt the Noteboom and the Meran were the most dangerous ones for white. So I avoid the Noteboom with e3 and then go for the Qc2 Bd6 g4 Semi-Slav Gambit. Maybe I'll go for the Marshall if I find it any good.

Against the usual move order I go for the Botvinnik, because I think that line is very difficult to handle for black. And if the plays Be7 I'm in the QGD where black has already played c6, so that I've avoided the Tartakower.
  
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Re: Slav & Meran
Reply #2 - 06/27/06 at 03:04:13
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There are several lines in the Slav where Black gets the oppoturnity for the greedy dxc4 and b5 trying to get an extra pawn. White can play an early e3 to protect his c4 pawn, even as early as move 3. But i think this is rather wet, White should develop both his knights ASAP and not be afraid to gambit his c4 pawn for the initiaive. A White 1. d4  player who doesn't learn to play like this is like a 1. e4 player who never learned how to play the Open Sicilian.

Some definitions:
Semi-Slav Meran: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 e6 5. e3 Nbd7 6.Bd3 (6. Qc2- Karpov) dc4 (6... Bd6 is a playable alternative) 7.Bc4 b5
Semi-Slav Botvinnik: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 e6 5. Bg5 dxc4
Semi-Slav Moscow: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 e6 5. Bg5 h6 6. Bxf6 (6. Bh4! dxc4 7. e4 g5 8. Bg3 b5- Anti-Moscow Gambit, pretty strong for White imho)
Main Slav:  1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4, 5. e4 here is dubious, so the main line is 5. a4 Bf5 6. Ne5! or 6. e3.
<"Triangle System">
Noteboom: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 e6 4. Nf3 dxc4
Slav Marshall Gambit: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 e6 4. e4
Anti-Noteboom Systems: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3. Nf3 e6 4. Qc2 (or 4. Bg5!?)

The choice between 3. Nc3 and 3. Nf3 is primarily for White to decide how he wants to meet the "triangle system". The Slav Marshall is theoretically the most dangerous for Black. But 3. Nc3 allows additional deviations like 3... e5!?? (Winawer Countergambit) and 3... dxc4 (this is less strong in the case of 3. Nf3 since b5-b4 does not gain a tempo on 3. Nc3),  i think these deviations should not be feared though, so 3. Nc3 is the strongest move on the board. But many GMs do not like complications, so they start with 3. Nf3 instead, intending to squeeze a small edge against the "triangle" with 3. Nf3 e6 4. Qc2.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Slav & Meran
Reply #1 - 06/26/06 at 18:18:33
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Well, this is just a very brief description of the differences, and I'm sure I can get quite a bit more specific.  But....

The Slav (proper) involves Black playing d5, c6 and avoiding e6 until after he's developed his light-squared Bishop.

The Semi-slav occurs when Black plays d5, c6 and e6, usually in the first three moves.  The Meran is a variation of the Semi-Slav.  Black will take on c4 and support it with b5.  A classic Meran game was Istvan Sokolov-Shirov, Stockholm 1990.

That started out:  1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5. Nf3 Nbd7 6.Bd3 dc4 7.Bc4 b5 This is the Meran, and the game I mentioned continued 8.Bd3 Bb7 (The Wade Variation, according to Peter Wells in The Complete Semi-Slav) 9.e4 b4 10.Na4 c5 11.e5 Nd5 12.0-0 cd4 13.Nd4 Ne5! ("Acceptance of White's offer is clearly best"  ~Wells, p. 109)

The critical difference between the Meran and an Orthodox QGD is that White plays e3 instead of developing the dark-squared Bishop.

Without going into too much more detail, I hope this helps.
  
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woofwoof
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Slav & Meran
06/26/06 at 17:33:44
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Pardon my ignorance,  Embarrassed but whats the diff? They both look very similar to me esp the c6 move. Meran & semi-slav the same??

Most common 3rd move by white is 3.ktf3. Why? Isnt 3.Ktc3 'sharper'?

I suppose they are the sharpest QGDs at black's disposal?

Any overview wld be greatly appreciated. thanks.
  

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