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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 344271 times)
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #151 - 07/25/06 at 19:03:25
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In line c) I recorded only: 11.Nb3 Bxe3 12.Qxe3 f6 and then
13.exf6 Nxf6 14.Bd2 Qd6 15.Rhf1=
or
13.Qh3 Nb6 14.Bd3 h6 15.exf6 Qxf6 16.Kb1 a5 17.a3=
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #150 - 07/25/06 at 18:29:14
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1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3


current position


(lost diagrams are re-appearing everywhere! Smiley)


Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/25/06 at 16:07:01:
 
Psakhis says 
Quote:

"[a]nd finally, 11...Bxe3?! 12.Qxe3 b5 13.Bd3 Qb6 14.Qh3 guarantees White an easy, pleasant game."


Here is some analysis that MNb gave on 11...Bxe3 earlier in this thread:

MNb wrote on 07/23/06 at 13:22:05:

c)11.Nb3 Bxe3 12.Qxe3 b5 13.Bd3 b4
c1)14.Na4 a5 15.Qh3 h6 (is f5 that bad? 16.g4 Nb6)16.g4 Ba6 17.g5 with a strong attack.
c2)14.Ne4 a5 15.Qh3 a4 16.Nd6 h6 17.Nd2 does not look good.


11...Bxe3 does not look very promising in these lines either.

Keano wrote on 07/25/06 at 15:58:18:
I dont see it as that big of a concession for a French player to make - what would worry me more would be the fact that Whites attack is ready to flow (for example in the Kb1 line White spends a tempo to play Qe3 followed by Qh3, whereas here he is ready to go)

Keano, you're absolutely right.  As a reason for avoiding 11...Bxe3, the 'positionally unappealing' exchange of dark-squared bishops is insignificant compared to the acceleration of White's attack.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #149 - 07/25/06 at 18:16:41
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Ostap, 

Thanks, you're right.  That was the game I was thinking of.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #148 - 07/25/06 at 18:08:48
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/25/06 at 16:07:01:
I'll try to find the Rowson game that convinced me 11...Bxe3 is horrible.

The only Rowson game that I could find in the 11.Nb3 line (cited in Shipov's notes to the Anand-Morozevich game) continued 11... Bb4 12. Bd3 b5 13. Rhf1 Nb6 14. Qf2 Nc4 15. Bxc4 bxc4 16. Nd4 Ne7 17. Nb1 Rb8 18. c3 Bc5 19. Nc2 Bxe3+ 20. Qxe3 Rowson-Hoang Thanh Trang, Budapest 1996/1-0 (45).  This game did involve ...Bxe3/Qxe3, but the exchange came much later in the game.



  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #147 - 07/25/06 at 16:20:04
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IMJohnCox wrote on 07/25/06 at 15:14:18:
I beat Karpov with the French in the same year, also a simul of course. On that form line you'd have thought Korchnoi would have won in Merano. Curious. ...


On that form line, I'd expect you'd have won in Merano!    Who else was playing in the simul against you?  You mentioned Korchnoi and Karpov already! Wink

Ok, enough with the sychophancy.

The problem I've seen with Black's game is that even though he tries to play b5-b4, a5, and Ba6, the Bishop is still bad and White can avoid trading any pieces for it by making concrete threats on the king-side until his own light squared bishop lands on e4, g6 or h7 (ouch).
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #146 - 07/25/06 at 16:13:43
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TO be honest I know I must be the only French guy in the universe who thinks this, since everbody else gives the books great reviews, but I never found the Psakhis books of much interest to me. Maybe it is the format in that he is trying to cover literally everything so I found he never went into anything in the kind of depth I was looking for. Is it just me? I´ve seen elsewhere that apparently Psakhis is "the French players bible", well...not for me Wink

In this case however I agree with his assesment after Qh3 - in fact I´d go further - "White has a ready made kingside attack, ready to go!"
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #145 - 07/25/06 at 16:07:01
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Psakhis, in French Defense:  Steinitz, Classical and Other Systems, gives the line on page 88.  He says (correctly) that 

Quote:
the Dutch master [is he only a master?] "Nijboer constantly and successfully plays 11.Nb3!?.  A possible continuation is 11...Bb4 [sic]  Black hopes to provoke his opponent into a2-a3, weakening white's king position."...
He then quotes from several games, three of which were Nijboer-Stellwagen [sic.  Chessbase has the name Stellewagen] played in 2003.  

Psakhis says 
Quote:

"[a]nd finally, 11...Bxe3?! 12.Qxe3 b5 13.Bd3 Qb6 14.Qh3 guarantees White an easy, pleasant game."


That's is his entire analysis of 11...Bxe3.  In fact, his analysis of 11...Nb3 is summarized with the ECO symbol for "with counterplay" 

after quoting moves 14-17 of Nijboer-Stellwagen, Leeuwarden, 2002.  Sometimes there's a difference between sparse minimalism and absolutely useless notation.  Angry

At the end of the entire chapter, he says 

Quote:
"[i]t would most probably pay White to give more attention to the eleventh-move alternatives [to 11.h4]:   11.Nb3!?, 11.Kb1 and especially 11.Qf2!?."


I'll try to find the Rowson game that convinced me 11...Bxe3 is horrible.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #144 - 07/25/06 at 15:58:18
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I dont see it as that big of a concession for a French player to make - what would worry me more would be the fact that Whites attack is ready to flow (for example in the Kb1 line White spends a tempo to play Qe3 followed by Qh3, whereas here he is ready to go)
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #143 - 07/25/06 at 15:47:31
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Willempie wrote on 07/25/06 at 15:39:08:
I would also say that most times I would want that bishop exchanged for a knight, preferably the one on c3 (then again I used to be a winawer addict).

Willempie, I feel you pain. Cry
I'm a big fan of the Winawer and enjoy playing it from either side of the board. Smiley
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #142 - 07/25/06 at 15:44:07
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IMJohnCox wrote on 07/25/06 at 15:14:18:
Presumably Psakhis must say why ...Bxe3 is bad?


Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/25/06 at 08:03:30:
11...Bxe3 is thematically suicidal.  Psakhis considers this to be just bad and spends almost no time on it.  Suicidal or not though, it has had some positive results in the few games (between weaker players generally) that I've found.

The dark-square bishop exchange does seems a bit of a positional concession.  My impression was that Black's only serious choices here were ...Bb4, ...Be7, and ...b6, but I'm happy to hear why I'm wrong from people who obviously know more about this opening than I do (no wink here; this is a sincere statement).
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #141 - 07/25/06 at 15:39:08
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IMJohnCox wrote on 07/25/06 at 12:13:08:
Oh and by the way, from a position of some considerable ignorance about this opening line, I would have thought 11...Bxe3 made some sense. Black's plan is ...b5-b4, ..a5 and ..Ba6, isn't it? That's what theory has him do after most White moves instead of Nb3, but he has to play ...N or Bxd4 first, is it not? I don't really understand why Nb3 should make Black abandon that plan. In fact that knight looks like a juicy target for ...a5-a4 to me. Anyone like to explain?

I have noticed in a couple of similar positions that white would welcome this exchange as it rids him of a bad bishop. In almost all advanced structures this bishop is not doing much other then just standing in the way. I would also say that most times I would want that bishop exchanged for a knight, preferably the one on c3 (then again I used to be a winawer addict). The kniggets also have the nasty habit of using the dark squares on the queenside, while if the bishop does that then there is not much harm done.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #140 - 07/25/06 at 15:27:00
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Forget me blathering on about Nc5 John and check my "After-Afterthought" - I dont really fancy Blacks position after Bd3 with Qh3 coming Cool
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #139 - 07/25/06 at 15:14:18
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I beat Karpov with the French in the same year, also a simul of course. On that form line you'd have thought Korchnoi would have won in Merano. Curious. I was 18, I suppose. Old enough to drink beer here.

Am I bothered about a knight coming to c5? It can't support itself there, surely? Or is that White's idea - to play Kb1/Rc1/c3 and dominate the queenside? Presumably Psakhis must say why ...Bxe3 is bad and indeed what the whole idea of Nb3 was?
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #138 - 07/25/06 at 15:06:54
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IMJohnCox wrote on 07/25/06 at 12:09:44:
Re something much higher up the thread; I would like to say that SmyslovFan's 13...g5 in the piece sacrifice line was in fact introduced into modern theory in the lesser-known game Korchnoi-Cox, simultaneous display, Shropshire, 1980 or so. The game finished in a draw after Black had good chances, and the great man was kind enough to tell me it was an interesting idea. I noticed he didn't rush out and play it, mind.



Great minds think alike.

I don't know what that has to do with the fact that John and I independently came up with 13...g5 (along with Dreev), but I thought I'd say it. Cool

BTW:  Congratulations on drawing against Korchnoi, especially by playing the French against him!  (Who cares if it was a simul; in 1980 you drew against the runner-up for the world title!) 

Smiley  (Were you old enough to drink beer back then?)
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #137 - 07/25/06 at 15:03:50
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Yes and if we went down that line it would be another interesting choice between 13.g4 and Anands move 13.Rhf1. Lots to analyse here... Wink      
  
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