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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 358860 times)
OstapBender
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #271 - 08/11/06 at 06:25:12
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/11/06 at 01:37:04:
I hope your journey doesn't involve any airports.

Thankfully not.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/11/06 at 01:37:04:
There is an alternative to 14.Rhg1.  14.Rhf1 has also been played with success.  I'm sure there are other moves, but those are the two most popular.

14.Rhf1 may well be playable, but I cannot find a single game which reached this position (by any move order).  If anyone has a game with 14.Rhf1 I'm very interested in seeing it.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #270 - 08/11/06 at 01:37:04
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Ostap, 

I hope your journey doesn't involve any airports.

There is an alternative to 14.Rhg1.  14.Rhf1 has also been played with success.  I'm sure there are other moves, but those are the two most popular.

Cheers!
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #269 - 08/11/06 at 00:57:19
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1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7


current position

Aha!  Just as I expected!  Smiley

Actually, I thought this was more difficult of the two moves for White to deal with.  After 13...Nb6 I probably would have continued with 14.a3 analogous to the Anand-Morozevich game where I hoped that g2-g4 would prove to be more useful than Rhf1 in the 17.f5 variation suggested by Shipov.

After 13...Bb7, I think that 14.Rhg1 is almost automatic (since the 14.a3 idea can be easily ruled out).  Last time I replied with an automatic move it was in my Dragon game vs. Scholar and there also, by some remarkable coincidence, the automatic move was Rg1 (and I think it may have been the wrong decision! Sad). Call me superstitious, but I will spend a little time considering whether there are any other candidate moves which should be taken into account.  

I will be going out of town for the weekend, however I think there should be no problem posting my move before I leave.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #268 - 08/11/06 at 00:30:23
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Well, 

It seems we all pretty much agree.  While 13...Nb6 is certainly noteworthy, we prefer to play 


13...Bb7

Black is going to have numerous choices to go through on move 14.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #267 - 08/10/06 at 14:52:35
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Hello,

Also Memers a5 idea, seems to work best after 13 ...Bb7 14 Rg1 a5, have not seen a direct refutation of this move, but there have been so many posts recently may have missed it.  So another vote for 13...Bb7. 

Bye John S

p.s nice explanation from Ostap for why 14a3 does not work here.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #266 - 08/10/06 at 03:54:35
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Thanks Ostap, and by extension, Keano!
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #265 - 08/10/06 at 03:26:03
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/10/06 at 02:49:52:
Did someone (such as dom) suggest 13...Na5 here?  If so, I can't find the analysis.

Keano looked at 13...Na5 (for both 13.Rhf1 and 13.g4), reaching the conclusion that it didn't look very promising.  It looks like ...Na5 only works if it is played later (move 14 or 15).

Keano wrote on 08/05/06 at 14:56:48:
I have a universal suggestion for Black that might work against both 13.Rhf1 and 13.g4

The idea is 13...Na5!? straight away - if 14.Nxa5 Qxa5 15.Bd4 then not 15...Bxc3? 16.Bxc3 Qxa2 17.Kd2 when the Black queen is trappped of course.

Instead 15...Nc5! and now I await somebody to refute my latest attempt for Black  Wink There is the idea of ...Na4 coming, and a3 might be risky for White here


Keano wrote on 08/05/06 at 21:37:51:
OK I have looked at a couple of things:

1) the idea of an early ...Na5 against 13.Rhf1:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.Rhf1 Na5 14.Bd4!?
After much reflection I believe this is Whites best chance of advantage [14.Nxa5 Qxa5 15.Bd4 Nc5 16.a3 (16.Kb1 Na4 17.f5 Bxc3 18.bxc3 exf5 19.Bxf5 Be6 And Black is almost winning) 16...Bxa3 (16...Nxd3+ 17.Qxd3 Be7 18.f5 (that move again!)) 17.bxa3 Qxa3+ 18.Kb1 Qb4+ 19.Ka1 (after Kc1 Black can consider repeating moves to see if White wants a draw - if he needs to win at all costs it may also be possible to play on!?) 19...Bd7 with the White king over on a1 I suspect Black has reasonable chances here] 14...Nxb3+ [14...Nc4 15.Qe2] 15.cxb3 (Note that in this line Doms suggestion of exchanging Black squared bishops and playing f6 is not as strong - since f4 is not a weak pawn. This is a critical position but at the moment I prefer White - the attack flows quite smoothly)

**************
2) I also looked at early ...Na5 against 13.g4 - here I concluded that it is far too risky.... 
 
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Na5 14.Nxa5 (It seems here this simple way is strong) Qxa5 15.Bd4 Nc5 [15...Bc5 16.Bxc5 Nxc5 17.Kb1 b4 18.Ne2 Bd7 19.Nd4 Bb5 20.f5 Bxd3 21.cxd3 Rfc8 22.f6 with attack] 16.Kb1 Na4?! [16...Bd7 17.f5 Rfc8 18.f6 Nxd3 19.Qxd3 g6 20.Qe3 Rab8 21.h4 Bf8 22.h5 b4 23.hxg6 fxg6 24.f7+ Kxf7 25.Rxh7+ Kg8 26.Qf3 Kxh7 27.Qf7+ Kh6 28.Be3+ g5 29.Rh1#] 17.f5! Bxc3 18.bxc3 Rb8 19.f6! with a winning attack
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #264 - 08/10/06 at 02:49:52
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Did someone (such as dom) suggest 13...Na5 here?  If so, I can't find the analysis.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #263 - 08/10/06 at 00:09:53
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/09/06 at 23:49:37:
I've carefully read most of the commentary that went on in the last week and am now surprised that Ostap played 13.g4 after all the productive work that went on with 13.Rhf1.

Well, by now I've grown quite accustomed to people being surprised by my moves. Roll Eyes

I expect we will soon see 13...Bb7 on the board - but maybe Smyslov_Fan will surprise me!  Tongue
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #262 - 08/09/06 at 23:49:37
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I've carefully read most of the commentary that went on in the last week and am now surprised that Ostap played 13.g4 after all the productive work that went on with 13.Rhf1.

Now that 13.g4 is on the board, it seems that Black has only two main options:

  • 13...Bb7

    and
  • 13...Nb6
  • 13...Another move.  Again, please explain.

As far as I'm concerned, 13...f6 has been busted in analysis.  My own analysis follows what's been published, but I think it bears repeating:



Nijboer,F (2553) - Glek,I (2576) [C11]
FRA-chT France (2.1), 01.02.2003
[and,Dan]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 [13.Rhf1 Nb6 14.Bc5 Bxc5 15.Nxc5 Nc4 16.Qf2 Qb6?! (16...Qe7!?) 17.g4 d4 18.N3e4 Ne3 19.Nf6+ gxf6 20.Qh4] 13...Bb7 [13...f6 14.a3 Bxc3 15.Qxc3 Bb7 16.exf6 Qxf6 17.Qxf6 Nxf6 18.Rhg1 e5 19.Nc5 and Black is dead.]

14.Rhg1 

[14.Rhf1 Rc8 15.f5 (15.Qg2 Bxc3 16.bxc3 f6 (16...Ncxe5?? 17.fxe5 Nxe5 18.Bd4) 17.Qh3 g6 18.f5 Ndxe5 19.Nc5 Nxd3+ 20.cxd3 (20.Rxd3? Ne5) 20...Qa5 21.fxg6 Qxc3+ 22.Kb1 hxg6 23.Qh6 Qb4+ 24.Ka1=; 15...Ncxe5 16.fxe6 fxe6 17.Rxf8+ Qxf8 18.Rf1 Qd6 19.Bd4 Nxd3+ 20.Qxd3 e5 21.Bf2 Bxc3 22.bxc3 Nf6 23.Qf5 Ne4 24.Bg3 Nxg3 25.hxg3 Rf8] I need to invest some time in this analysis because I know this isn't best play for either side.

14...Rc8 [14...f6] 15.Rg3 Re8 16.Rh3 g6 17.Qf2 Bf8 18.g5 Nb4 19.Kb1 Nxd3 20.cxd3 Bc6 21.Ne2 b4 22.Nbd4 Ba4 23.b3 Bb5 24.Nxb5 axb5 25.Nd4 Qa5 26.Qh4 h5 27.gxh6 Rc3 28.h7+ Kh8 29.Qf2 Ra8 30.Qb2 Nc5 31.Bf2 Rc8 32.Bh4 Nd7 33.Be1 Qb6 34.Nf3 Be7 35.d4 1-0


I'm leaning toward 13...Bb7 for several reasons, the most prominent being that it seems the most flexible move for Black.  What do you all think?


  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #261 - 08/09/06 at 13:26:41
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OstapBender wrote on 07/24/06 at 18:29:17:
I have a couple of links to annotations of the game Anand-Morozevich, San Luis 2005 featuring Nijboer's 11.Nb3 (as mentioned earlier), which could possibly be relevant to the game in this thread (although other 11th moves are still under consideration).

http://www.chesspro.ru/events/sanluis05-13en.shtml (commentary by Shipov)

[for other San Luis games, see: http://chess.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.chesspro.ru/events...]

http://www.e3e5.com/eng/petersburg/theory/article.html?127 (commentary by Sakaev)

The link to Shipov's notes is in English
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #260 - 08/09/06 at 13:24:09
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BTW: Is there an English translation available for Shipov's notes to the Anand-Moro game?  His original article in Russian was excellent. Here's the web address for that one: 

http://www.chesspro.ru/events/sanluis05-13.shtml
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #259 - 08/09/06 at 13:21:45
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I've gone back a few pages and am now more bewildered by the depth of analysis and the breadth of contributions this game has generated.  I want to thank everyone who has helped out, and if I miss thanking someone by name please don't be offended.

I want a special shout out to my Colorado homey, memers, who seems to have given up OTB chess for the time being in favor of correspondence chess.  It's fun to be on the same side of a position for a change!  Your pawn sac is worth serious consideration.

Also, Marin Fan and everyone else (yeah, that includes my industrious opponent Ostap) have been marvelous in devoting time and energy to this game!

Here's hoping I can do the analysis justice and play up to the standard that all of you have already set!

Cheers!

Smiley 

NB:  My modifications included correcting a spelling error and putting Ostap's name in bold.
« Last Edit: 08/09/06 at 14:53:01 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #258 - 08/09/06 at 13:02:09
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Hi, 

I was suffering from jet lag and work lag these last couple of days.  The latter of these two persists, but I will have all the candidates listed later today.  I want to thank dom and Keano especially for their insights.  I've been thinking along similar lines to what they suggested while my mind wasn't full of sun and salt water.

By the way, Robert Byrne's New York Times Sunday column featured a potent game won by Karjakin over Morozevich.  We mentioned it earlier in the posts, but it's more confirmation that we've at least chosen a fashionable line to study!
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #257 - 08/09/06 at 07:59:27
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Well I would suggest the main candidates are 13...Nb6 and 13...Bb7.

Having looked at my 13...Na5?! idea earlier it seemed to come up short, as did the ...a5 ideas (which might have more chance of working in a practical over the board game but I suspect is not quite a correct idea).

I have not really investigated 13...Nb6 yet - those lines look interesting, but at the moment I am standing by my latest idea for Black (inspired by doms line) until such time as it is refuted - I have tried but so far unsuccesfully - no doubt there is plenty more to this story as I am sure Nijboer had some analysis up his sleeve  Cool 

For now though, I put my vote down to 13...Bb7, but I would not rule out 13...Nb6 depending on the forthcoming analysis  Wink

  
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