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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 358881 times)
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #286 - 08/14/06 at 14:36:33
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1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1


current position

... and 14...Na5 continues to be the leading contender among the candidate moves.  This would be my first inclination as well, although I would put 14...Rc8 followed by 15...Na5 as a close second.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #285 - 08/14/06 at 14:25:13
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One should always be sympathetic towards a later conversion, even though I had suspected that someone like Smyslov_Fan would have appreciated the finer points of Bb4 earlier than move 11 Wink
So I'll throw in my 2 cents without much analysis (busy on an endgame). 

I quite like the ideaof Rc8 and Na5 (common themes in the e6 sicilian and Winawer). Both f6 and a5 look a bit shaky to my eyes and I quite like (as in I dont see anything wrong with it) Dom's analysis on 14... Na5.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #284 - 08/14/06 at 13:06:03
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14...Na5 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Qe1 Nxe3 17.Rxe3 ...
with the ideas:
- White can't put his Q+R on h file because h4 is controlled by Qd8
- if White try weaking castle then, Black exchanges the darksquare bishop: 16.Rh3 h6 17.Qe1 Nxe3 18.Rxe3 Rc8 19.g5 Bxc3 20.bxc3 hxg5 21.Rh3 f5 or 20...h5
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #283 - 08/14/06 at 11:10:05
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After 14... Na5 my Fritz suggests 15.Rg3

Nc4 16. Qe1+/- I think white has a nice advantage


Tom Cool
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #282 - 08/14/06 at 10:56:22
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I was only one week away. This thread develops too fast for me Grin
Perhabs I will come back to some lines. 
I apologize Marin_Fan for giving your line a ? without concrete analyse. 
In the actual position Khalifmans mainline is Rc8 15. Rg3 Na5 16. Rh3
His alternative is Qc7 with the following moves: Rg3 Rfc8 Rh3 g6 Qf2 Be7(see the game)
He evaluates the position after 24. Na5 as +/-

Netzer,J (2325) - Vallin,G (2419) [C11]
TCh-FRA Nat1 GpA Evry FRA (4), 01.04.2004

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1 Qc7 15.Rg3 Rfc8 16.Rh3 g6 17.Qf2 Be7 18.Kb1 Nb4 19.Rc1 Nxd3 20.cxd3 Qd8 21.Rf1 Qe8 22.Bd4 f5 23.gxf5 exf5 24.Na5 b4 25.Nd1 Nf8 26.Nxb7 Qc6 27.Ne3 Qxb7 28.Rg1 Qd7 29.Qg2 Rd8 30.Rh6 Qb5 31.e6 Qxd3+ 32.Nc2 Rac8 33.Rh3 Qe4 34.Rxh7 Qxd4 35.Nxd4 Kxh7 36.Nxf5 Rc7 37.Qh3+ Kg8 38.Qh6 Bf6 39.Rxg6+ Nxg6 40.Qxg6+ Bg7 41.e7 1-0
-------------------------------------------------------------
Khalifman gives as an improvement 17...Bxc3 18.bxc3 Na5 19.Nc5 instead of whiteatak shredders suggestion 17...Be7 


Cheers 
Tom
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #281 - 08/14/06 at 02:40:22
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I left my chess engine running (Shredder 10) for a while longer with that move I mentioned as a possible improvement in the Nijboer-Glek game, and the lines started looking bad for black. Shredder and I then started analyzing the 14...Na5 lines. My conclusion is that I'm still pretty clueless as to which is the more critical line. The strategy of exchanging pieces when you have less space (the 14...Na5 line) may turn out to be correct, however I'm stumped as to what to do against the line: 15.Bd4 Nxb3 16.axb3! I think this is better than 16.cxb3, as I like dom's suggestion of 16...Bc5. I think black gets a lot of play against white's weakened king position by white taking this way. 16.axb3 however, looks strong for white according to my analysis with Shredder. A possible improvement might be 15.Nc6, bringing the knight back, instead of taking the knight. It's a fun move to play around with, at any rate.  Undecided
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #280 - 08/14/06 at 01:00:13
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memers wrote on 08/13/06 at 08:19:51:
SF, I would go for DOM's line. Except on line"A". An improvement could be 14.Rhg1 Na5 15.Bd4 Nxb3+ 16.bxc3 Nc5!? 17.f5 Qh4=. IMO, the Black Queen should keep an eye on both side of the board. So, I incorporated both Dom and Keano's idea. I believe Line "B" looks more critical, but OK for Black.

Does this mean you are no longer advocating 14...a5, I wonder?

I like the 16...Nc5 suggestion in dom's line A.  There might also be some merit to playing 16...Bc5 in this position (I think Keano might have suggested this at one point).

So 14...Na5 seems to be building up a little momentum, while 14...a5 and 14...f6 have yet to be recommended (since SF's candidate move post, that is).

I haven't had a chance yet to look at whiteatak shredder's suggested improvement in the Nijboer-Glek game, but will count this as support of 14...Rc8.

Based on what I'm seeing I guess I will focus my efforts on trying to bust up 14...Na5 — at least until I see another choice appear here.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #279 - 08/13/06 at 08:19:51
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Hello,

SF, I would go for DOM's line. Except on line"A". An improvement could be 14.Rhg1 Na5 15.Bd4 Nxb3+ 16.bxc3 Nc5!? 17.f5 Qh4=. IMO, the Black Queen should keep an eye on both side of the board. So, I incorporated both Dom and Keano's idea. I believe Line "B" looks more critical, but OK for Black.

Memers







  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #278 - 08/12/06 at 21:25:25
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14.Rhg1 Na5!

A) 15.Bd4 Nxb3 16.axb3 Qc7 or 16.cxb3 Bc5
B) 15.Nxa5 Qxa5 (...Dashibalov-Provotorov,Russie 2006)
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #277 - 08/12/06 at 20:25:45
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I think I found a possible improvement on the Nijboer-Glek game. After the moves: 
Nijboer,F (2553) - Glek,I (2576) [C11]
FRA-chT France (2.1), 01.02.2003
[and,Dan]
 
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4
14.Rhg1 Rc8 15.Rg3 Re8 16.Rh3 g6 17.Qf2 

Now 17...Be7

I think the bishop is better placed here than on f8. For one thing, if white tries the idea with g5 and Qh4 then black plays h5 and white can't capture en passant because of the bishop on e7. And if white tries sacking on h5 with Be2, then black plays Kg7 with Rh8 to follow. The knight can go to f8 in some lines as well. And in the Nijboer-Glek game, the bishop eventually went to e7 anyway.

What do you guys think
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #276 - 08/12/06 at 01:35:47
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/12/06 at 00:28:36:
Hi all, 

I'm going to need some help here.  I had planned to play 14...f6, but a deeper look has me thinking it's a mistake.  

I know Black has other options including

  • 14...Rc8  (the most popular
  • 14...a5!? (suggested by memers as an interesting gambit)
  • 14...Na5
  • 14...f6 and others.

SF,

Since you've been SO generous with advice when I had to move, I feel it would be remiss of me not to reciprocate.

What was that advice you offered me earlier in this game when I was struggling to decide on a move?   Undecided

... Wait!  Now I remember!  Here is is:

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/17/06 at 03:09:00:

Well, you could resign.   Wink

But maybe we could play it out at least a couple more moves. Grin

Actually, I think the ...Na5 idea may have potential (either 14...Na5 above or 14...Rc8 followed by 15...Na5) but I haven't examined it beyond the analysis posted so I'm not entirely sure.

I like the idea behind 14...a5!?, but my hunch is that it is too risky and won't stand up to close scrutiny (and it will certainly be scrutinized closely should it appear on the board).

I agree with you about 14...f6, which I have started to look at.  Maybe it's still too unclear to reject completely, though.

I hope to see a lot of analysis posted here when I get back ...

... but I'll settle for a 14th move.

Cheers,
Ostap      Smiley

  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #275 - 08/12/06 at 00:36:14
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I think this is the crucial position for Black in the entire variation with Nb3 and g4.  If Black can come up with something here, then 11.Nb3 may not be White's best move.  If Black can't improve on the Nijboer-Glek game, then 11...Bb4 is on the critical list, and by extension, perhaps even 10...a6.

I don't want to pretend that this one game will determine the fate of a line that's been played at the highest levels, but I do think this is one of the most important positions in the 11.Nb3 line.

Help!  M'aidez! (or MAYDAY!)
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #274 - 08/12/06 at 00:28:36
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Hi all, 

I'm going to need some help here.  I had planned to play 14...f6, but a deeper look has me thinking it's a mistake.  

I know Black has other options including

  • 14...Rc8  (the most popular
  • 14...a5!? (suggested by memers as an interesting gambit)
  • 14...Na5
  • 14...f6 and others.


Here's some analysis of 14...f6:



Nijboer,F (2553) - Glek,I (2576) [C11]
FRA-chT France (2.1), 01.02.2003
[and,Dan]

14...Rc8 (Nijboer-Glek)

[14...f6 15.exf6
  • (15.Bf5?! Re8 16.exf6 Qxf6 (16...Bxc3 17.f7+ Kxf7 18.bxc3 Kg8 and White is winning) 17.Bd3 Bxc3 18.Qxc3 Qxc3-+; 
  • (15...Nxf6 16.g5 Nd7 17.a3 Be7 (17...Bd6?! 18.Ne4!) 18.Qg2±;
  • 15...Qxf6 This is the key move in the 14...f6 line.
    16.a3 Bxc3 17.Qxc3 Qxc3 18.bxc3 Rae8 19.h3 e5 20.Bf5! exf4 21.Bxf4 Nb6

    (21...Nf6 22.Bd6 Rf7 23.g5 Ne4 24.Bxh7+ Kh8 25.Bg6 Nxd6 26.Rxd5 Rd8 27.Rxd6 Rxd6 28.Bxf7± I thought at first this is simply winning.  Black still has some resources, but why go into this?) 

    22.Bd6 Rf6 23.Bc5 Nc4 24.Rge1 Although Fritz considers this line to be equal (perhaps favoring Black), I think White is to be preferred in the middle game. White's playing almost a full piece up for the time being, and the two Bishops are dominating.] 

    Back to the Nijboer-Glek game.
    15.Rg3 Re8 16.Rh3 g6 17.Qf2 Bf8 18.g5 Nb4 19.Kb1 Nxd3 20.cxd3 Bc6 21.Ne2 b4 22.Nbd4 Ba4 23.b3 Bb5 24.Nxb5 axb5 25.Nd4 Qa5 26.Qh4 h5 27.gxh6 Rc3 28.h7+ Kh8 29.Qf2 Ra8 30.Qb2 Nc5 31.Bf2 Rc8 32.Bh4 Nd7 33.Be1 Qb6 34.Nf3 Be7 35.d4 1-0

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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
    Reply #273 - 08/11/06 at 17:16:46
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    I've looked a bit and can see no reason not to play 14.Rhg1, so this is my move:

    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1


    current position

    Having analyzed all of Black's replies to a forced win for White, I'm pretty happy with it.  Wink

    I look forward, as always, to your response.  We have an exciting game ahead!  

    Vive la France!
      

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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
    Reply #272 - 08/11/06 at 12:35:20
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    Ostap, 

    You may be right about the pedigree of 14.Rhf1.  I was looking at a personal database in which I had added the idea as a possible improvement.  I analysed it separately twice, making it seem that it had been successful at least twice.  I'm not sure if the idea came from parthenogenesis or from some real game.
      
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