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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 358852 times)
Willempie
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #301 - 08/15/06 at 15:11:47
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That'll teach me to look one move deeper next time Grin
  

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OstapBender
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #300 - 08/15/06 at 15:00:30
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Willempie wrote on 08/15/06 at 14:37:08:
OstapBender wrote on 08/15/06 at 14:06:22:
Willempie wrote on 08/15/06 at 09:58:01:
dom wrote on 08/15/06 at 08:40:42:
After 17.Qxe3!? Bxc3 18.Rh3 g6! (instead of h6) because White has not the g5-gxh6 moves, and 19.bxc3 Qc7 to follow (forbidding the f4-f5 push; and preparing Rfc8-Nf8)

17.Rh3 g6 and the same defensive setup

I looked at those lines and directly 19. f5 does the trick methinks as you miss a tempo to deal with Qh6.

After (17.Qxe3!? Bxc3 18.Rh3 g6) 19.f5 I think Black is fine after 19...Bxe5 20.Qh6 Nf6.

Do I have the wrong line; did you mean 19.f5 somewhere else?

No I meant that line though f5 can pop up at other lines. I though that after 20... Nf6 21. g5 would win, though I havent fritzed it or anything.

Nope 21.g5 doesn't win because 21...Bf4+ pins the g5-pawn.
  

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Willempie
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #299 - 08/15/06 at 14:49:05
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OstapBender wrote on 08/15/06 at 14:35:33:

I'm not seeing that 19.Qxe3 actually wins a piece (maybe I'm overlooking something), but it looks like a big improvement over 19.fxe5.  For example:
19.Qxe3 Nxg4 20.Bf5+ and now 20...Nh6 so White does not win a piece, but after 21.Qd4 f6 (21...exf5? 22.Rxh6+ Kg8 23.Rg1 is winning) 22.Bxe6 Qd6 23.f5 I think White has a pretty significant advantage.

Completely missed the Qd4 idea with the attack on the bishop, otherwise 19.Qxe3 Nxg4 20.Bf5+ Nh6 21. Qd4 exf5? 22.Rxh6+ Kg8 23.Rg1 would work with 23... f6.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #298 - 08/15/06 at 14:37:08
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OstapBender wrote on 08/15/06 at 14:06:22:
Willempie wrote on 08/15/06 at 09:58:01:
dom wrote on 08/15/06 at 08:40:42:
After 17.Qxe3!? Bxc3 18.Rh3 g6! (instead of h6) because White has not the g5-gxh6 moves, and 19.bxc3 Qc7 to follow (forbidding the f4-f5 push; and preparing Rfc8-Nf8)

17.Rh3 g6 and the same defensive setup

I looked at those lines and directly 19. f5 does the trick methinks as you miss a tempo to deal with Qh6.

After (17.Qxe3!? Bxc3 18.Rh3 g6) 19.f5 I think Black is fine after 19...Bxe5 20.Qh6 Nf6.

Do I have the wrong line; did you mean 19.f5 somewhere else?

No I meant that line though f5 can pop up at other lines. I though that after 20... Nf6 21. g5 would win, though I havent fritzed it or anything.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #297 - 08/15/06 at 14:35:33
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986 wrote on 08/15/06 at 14:22:13:
Quote:
17... Nxe5 (this is at least much fun Grin) though blck could prolly flick in Bxc3 at some points.
-18. Bxh7+ Kh8 19.fxe5 Nxg4 20. Bd3+ Nh6 In this variation white can force the perpetual at some points and I think he should as f5 will be on black's menu.
-18. Qe3 Nxg4


I have the same question as Ostap and in this line I think 19.fxe5 is wrong instead White can play Dxe3 and White wins a piece.
Tom Smiley

I'm not seeing that 19.Qxe3 actually wins a piece (maybe I'm overlooking something), but it looks like a big improvement over 19.fxe5.  For example:
19.Qxe3 Nxg4 20.Bf5+ and now 20...Nh6 so White does not win a piece, but after 21.Qd4 f6 (21...exf5? 22.Rxh6+ Kg8 23.Rg1 is winning) 22.Bxe6 Qd6 23.f5 I think White has a pretty significant advantage.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #296 - 08/15/06 at 14:22:13
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Quote:
17... Nxe5 (this is at least much fun Grin) though blck could prolly flick in Bxc3 at some points.
-18. Bxh7+ Kh8 19.fxe5 Nxg4 20. Bd3+ Nh6 In this variation white can force the perpetual at some points and I think he should as f5 will be on black's menu.
-18. Qe3 Nxg4


I have the same question as Ostap and in this line I think 19.fxe5 is wrong instead White can play Dxe3 and White wins a piece.


Tom Smiley
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #295 - 08/15/06 at 14:06:22
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Willempie wrote on 08/15/06 at 09:58:01:
dom wrote on 08/15/06 at 08:40:42:
After 17.Qxe3!? Bxc3 18.Rh3 g6! (instead of h6) because White has not the g5-gxh6 moves, and 19.bxc3 Qc7 to follow (forbidding the f4-f5 push; and preparing Rfc8-Nf8)

17.Rh3 g6 and the same defensive setup

I looked at those lines and directly 19. f5 does the trick methinks as you miss a tempo to deal with Qh6.

After (17.Qxe3!? Bxc3 18.Rh3 g6) 19.f5 I think Black is fine after 19...Bxe5 20.Qh6 Nf6.

Do I have the wrong line; did you mean 19.f5 somewhere else?
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #294 - 08/15/06 at 09:58:01
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dom wrote on 08/15/06 at 08:40:42:
After 17.Qxe3!? Bxc3 18.Rh3 g6! (instead of h6) because White has not the g5-gxh6 moves, and 19.bxc3 Qc7 to follow (forbidding the f4-f5 push; and preparing Rfc8-Nf8)

17.Rh3 g6 and the same defensive setup

I looked at those lines and directly 19. f5 does the trick methinks as you miss a tempo to deal with Qh6.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #293 - 08/15/06 at 09:53:41
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On a more serious note and to help SF against the oncoming onslaught on the h-file I looked at the variation 14... Na5 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Qe1 Nxe3 17. Rh3 which is a very interesting and prolly dangerous find)
17... g6 with the idea Nf5 (this move for some reason appeals to me as it blocks the b1-h7 diagonal) is not good.
-18. f5 Nf5 (Qg5 may be even better) 19. gf5 Qg5+ seems better for black to me, though white certainly has some initiative for the pawns. 
-18. g5 Ng4 19. Qh4 (19.Rxh7 is nothing, while Rh4 unleashes the powers of the dark side after 19... Ndxe5) h5 and white is busted, he regains the knight, but loses some pawns after a later Ngxe5.
-18.Qxe3 (seems best to me) and now black looks shaky to say the least as both f5 and Qg3 are threatened.

17... Nxe5 (this is at least much fun Grin) though blck could prolly flick in Bxc3 at some points.
-18. Bxh7+ Kh8 19.fxe5 Nxg4 20. Bd3+ Nh6 In this variation white can force the perpetual at some points and I think he should as f5 will be on black's menu.
-18. Qe3 Nxg4
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #292 - 08/15/06 at 09:04:50
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@Willempie:  Cheesy

Quote:
After 17.Qxe3!? Bxc3 18.Rh3 g6! (instead of h6) because White has not the g5-gxh6 moves, and 19.bxc3 Qc7 to follow (forbidding the f4-f5 push; and preparing Rfc8-Nf8)


I am not sure g6 can equalize. For instance: 20.Df2 Tfc8?!(I believe this rook belongs to the e8 square) 21. Qh4 a5 22.Te1 I think white has a winning advantage because white can push his f-pawn after for example a5.

Cheers,
Tom  Smiley
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #291 - 08/15/06 at 08:40:42
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After 17.Qxe3!? Bxc3 18.Rh3 g6! (instead of h6) because White has not the g5-gxh6 moves, and 19.bxc3 Qc7 to follow (forbidding the f4-f5 push; and preparing Rfc8-Nf8)

17.Rh3 g6 and the same defensive setup
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #290 - 08/15/06 at 06:28:36
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OstapBender wrote on 08/15/06 at 02:17:10:
Does anyone know why Smyslov_Fan has not checked in on the forum in the last three days?  I hope it turns out to be something trivial (e.g., ISP problems, extra workload from start of a new school semester, or in deep thought analyzing next move  Wink), but the 3-day absence seems uncharacteristic and I'm growing a bit concerned.

Some people claim to have seen him last friday with this book. So that may explain some things Wink
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #289 - 08/15/06 at 02:17:10
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Does anyone know why Smyslov_Fan has not checked in on the forum in the last three days?  I hope it turns out to be something trivial (e.g., ISP problems, extra workload from start of a new school semester, or in deep thought analyzing next move  Wink), but the 3-day absence seems uncharacteristic and I'm growing a bit concerned.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #288 - 08/14/06 at 16:25:05
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986 wrote on 08/14/06 at 10:56:22:
I was only one week away. This thread develops too fast for me Grin

Tom,

Your timing is perfect!  We have been following a theoretical main line (to the extent that one exists after 11.Nb3) and are now poised to blaze a new trail.  Besides, with so many supporters of the "dark side" chiming in I was beginning to feel a bit outnumbered.

I like your suggestion of answering 14...Na5 with 15.Rg3 (thus far I'd only looked at the already mentioned 15.Bd4 and 15.Nxa5), and appreciate the analytical support you have provided for this suggestion.

Welcome back to this exciting battle!

Cheers,
Ostap     Smiley
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #287 - 08/14/06 at 14:55:11
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It's time to crush blacks position Wink
@ Dom: I agree with you Rxe3 is too slow for white, my first intention was to take back with the Queen but Rh3 is interesting too. 

Smiley
Tom

White - Black [C11]
[Tom]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1 Na5 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Qe1 Nxe3 17.Rh3 [ 17.Qxe3!? interesting for example 17...Bxc3 ( 17...Qb6 18.Qxb6 Nxb6 19.Ne2²) 18.Rh3 h6 19.bxc3 f6 20.Rg1 fxe5 21.g5 h5 22.fxe5 Qe8 23.g6 Qe7+-; 
17.Rxe3?! dom:
- White can't put his Q+R on h file because h4 is controlled by Qd8
- if White try weaking castle then, Black exchanges the darksquare bishop: 16.Rh3 h6 17.Qe1 Nxe3 18.Rxe3 Rc8 19.g5 Bxc3 20.bxc3 hxg5 21.Rh3 f5 or 20...h5] 17...Nxg4 [ 17...Nxd1 18.Bxh7+ Kh8 19.g5; 
17...h5] 18.Bxh7+ Kh8 19.Qg3 Nh6 20.Rg1 Rg8 21.Bxg8!? [ 21.Nd4 perhabs better 21...Bc5 22.Nce2÷] 21...Qxg8 22.f5 exf5 [ 22...Qh7 23.Nd4÷] 23.Nd4 Qh7 24.Nxf5 [ 24.e6 fxe6 25.Nxe6 Re8 26.Nxg7 Rg8 27.Qe3 Rxg7 28.Rxg7 Kxg7 29.Qd4+ Nf6 30.Qxb4=] 24...Bf8 25.Qf4 d4 26.Rxg7 Bxg7 27.Nxh6 Nxe5 28.Nxf7+ Nxf7 29.Rxh7+ Kxh7 30.Qxf7± dxc3 31.Qxb7 cxb2+ 32.Kb1 Re8 33.c3!± Line

  
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