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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 358861 times)
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #316 - 08/18/06 at 00:51:51
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/17/06 at 23:53:54:
Hi, My hard drive died a horrible, sudden death and I was without a computer.

I thought it would probably turn out to be something like this, but as days past I began to worry just the same (I deleted the most recent "organize a search party" Roll Eyes post as it now has no point).  I'm relieved it wasn't something worse, although I guess a hard drive crash can be pretty devastating in it's own way (hope you had most of the important stuff backed up).

Anyway, welcome back!  As you can see while you were away we've been pretty busy alternately trying to kill and save the French!  Grin
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #315 - 08/17/06 at 23:53:54
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Hi, My hard drive died a horrible, sudden death and I was without a computer.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #314 - 08/16/06 at 18:11:25
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@memers your idea looks good Smiley
@Smyslov_Fan: Where are you?  Cry We want to crush your position Wink Smiley


Tom
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #313 - 08/16/06 at 12:16:11
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986 wrote on 08/16/06 at 08:00:29:

Sorry I am bad at copying moves. Is there an easy way to copy moves from CB 8 or Fritz to copy moves without copying the whole game?

Seems like there ought to be a way to copy a selected list of moves but, to the best of my knowledge, it seems that it is only possible to copy the whole game - which makes quoting a variation really tedious.  Shorter variations I usually write down manually into a post (with inevitable typos from time to time).  For longer variations, I copy the whole game into MS Word and then copy the variation I want to post from there.

986 wrote on 08/16/06 at 08:00:29:
24.Nce2 Rc8!? 25. Qf4 Bf8 26.fxe6!? fxe6 27.c3 Nc5 28.Qe3 b4 29. Nf4
Hope it's correct now.

Yes, it makes sense now.  Thanks.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #312 - 08/16/06 at 08:00:29
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Quote:
I don't follow what's going on in this line after 24.Nce2 Rc8!? 25. Qf4 Bf8 26.fxe6!? fxe6.  Here 27.Nc5 doesn't make any sense.  I guess ...Nc5 might be Black's response to whatever White plays after 26...fxe6, but I can't make sense of what follows either.  The move ...b4 is listed twice in the line - it's just indecipherable.  Tom, can you re-post this?

Sorry I am bad at copying moves. Is there an easy way to copy moves from CB 8 or Fritz to copy moves without copying the whole game?

24.Nce2 Rc8!? 25. Qf4 Bf8 26.fxe6!? fxe6 27.c3 Nc5 28.Qe3 b4 29. Nf4
Hope it's correct now.


Tom
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #311 - 08/16/06 at 05:42:11
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986 wrote on 08/15/06 at 20:18:16:
Quote:
I (well me and a colleague, unfortunately not going by a German name) further checked this line:
17...Nxg4
-18. Bxh7+ Kh8 19. Qg3 (If there is something better it must be here) Nh6 20. Rg1 Rg8 (should be enough) 21. Bxg8 Qxg8 22. f5 Qh7 23. Nd4 (so far all 986's line) and now Bc5 should win. A very nice line runs: 24. f6 Bxd4 25. Qxg7+ Qxg7 26. Rxg7 Nxf6 27.exf6 Bxf6 28. Rxf7 Bg5+ 29. Kd1 Bc6 30. Rh5 d4 and I wouldnt know the exact evaluation but black certainly shouldnt lose.

In Willempies line I think 24.f6? is a mistake but Sce2 looks promising.
A sample line: 24...Rc8!? 25. Qf4 Bf8 26.fxe6!? fxe6 27.Nc5 b4 28.Qe3 b4 29. Nf4 and white has Sxe6 or Ng6, maybe it's enough for advantage. But I am rather sure there are improvements for both sides.

I don't follow what's going on in this line after 24.Nce2 Rc8!? 25. Qf4 Bf8 26.fxe6!? fxe6.  Here 27.Nc5 doesn't make any sense.  I guess ...Nc5 might be Black's response to whatever White plays after 26...fxe6, but I can't make sense of what follows either.  The move ...b4 is listed twice in the line - it's just indecipherable.  Tom, can you re-post this?
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #310 - 08/16/06 at 04:43:05
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Hello,

1.Dom's position starts out with 19.bxc3 Qc7!??. My question is after 20.Qg3 Rfc8!? 21 Qh4 Nf8 22.Qh6 with the idea of Rf1, pawn f5, and f6. This blatent and direct mating attack looks dangerous . What is the best defensive moves for Black??

2. With the above line looking like a plus for White, I was looking at 14.Rhg1 Na5 15.Rg3 Nxb3+ 15.axb3 Nc5. Trying to get rid of that darn Greek Bishop.

Memers
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #309 - 08/15/06 at 20:56:29
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Just noticed a funny perpetual:
16. Rh3 (iso Qe1) Nxd2 17. Bxh7+ 
At least you sack a queen this way Grin
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #308 - 08/15/06 at 20:18:16
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Quote:
I (well me and a colleague, unfortunately not going by a German name) further checked this line:
17...Nxg4
-18. Bxh7+ Kh8 19. Qg3 (If there is something better it must be here) Nh6 20. Rg1 Rg8 (should be enough) 21. Bxg8 Qxg8 22. f5 Qh7 23. Nd4 (so far all 986's line) and now Bc5 should win. A very nice line runs: 24. f6 Bxd4 25. Qxg7+ Qxg7 26. Rxg7 Nxf6 27.exf6 Bxf6 28. Rxf7 Bg5+ 29. Kd1 Bc6 30. Rh5 d4 and I wouldnt know the exact evaluation but black certainly shouldnt lose.


Quote:

This is a nice line.  At first glance, I'd say Black is actually winning after 30...d4.
 
I also looked at 22...Qh7 a bit and didn't like the look of 23.Nd4 Bc5.  I thought the immediate 23.f6 looked like a good bid for an improvement, undermining the g7-pawn supporting the knight on h6 — followed by hammering away on the pinned knight.
I haven't worked out details but will post something when I do.


In Willempies line I think 24.f6? is a mistake but Sce2 looks promising.
A sample line: 24...Rc8!? 25. Qf4 Bf8 26.fxe6!? fxe6 27.Nc5 b4 28.Qe3 b4 29. Nf4 and white has Sxe6 or Ng6, maybe it's enough for advantage. But I am rather sure there are improvements for both sides.
21. Sd4 instead of 21.Lxg8!? has some logic, if the concrete lines after Lxg8 doesn't win a slower aproach is needed. I haven't looked at 23.f6.

Tom Cool
 
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #307 - 08/15/06 at 19:38:37
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Willempie wrote on 08/15/06 at 19:08:09:
OstapBender wrote on 08/15/06 at 16:04:48:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1
  • 17.Rh3 (986) 17...g6 (dom) 

    • I (well me and a colleague, unfortunately not going by a German name) further checked this line:
    17...Nxg4 
    -18. Bxh7+ Kh8 19. Qg3 (If there is something better it must be here) Nh6 20. Rg1 Rg8 (should be enough) 21. Bxg8 Qxg8 22. f5 Qh7 23. Nd4 (so far all 986's line) and now Bc5 should win. A very nice line runs: 24. f6 Bxd4 25. Qxg7+ Qxg7 26. Rxg7 Nxf6 27.exf6 Bxf6 28. Rxf7 Bg5+ 29. Kd1 Bc6 30. Rh5 d4 and I wouldnt know the exact evaluation but black certainly shouldnt lose.

    This is a nice line.  At first glance, I'd say Black is actually winning after 30...d4.

    I also looked at 22...Qh7 a bit and didn't like the look of 23.Nd4 Bc5.  I thought the immediate 23.f6 looked like a good bid for an improvement, undermining the g7-pawn supporting the knight on h6 — followed by hammering away on the pinned knight.

    I haven't worked out details but will post something when I do.
      
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
    Reply #306 - 08/15/06 at 19:08:09
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    OstapBender wrote on 08/15/06 at 16:04:48:
    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1
  • 17.Rh3 (986) 17...g6 (dom) 

    • I (well me and a colleague, unfortunately not going by a German name) further checked this line:
    17...Nxg4 
    -18. Bxh7+ Kh8 19. Qg3 (If there is something better it must be here) Nh6 20. Rg1 Rg8 (should be enough) 21. Bxg8 Qxg8 22. f5 Qh7 23. Nd4 (so far all 986's line) and now Bc5 should win. A very nice line runs: 24. f6 Bxd4 25. Qxg7+ Qxg7 26. Rxg7 Nxf6 27.exf6 Bxf6 28. Rxf7 Bg5+ 29. Kd1 Bc6 30. Rh5 d4 and I wouldnt know the exact evaluation but black certainly shouldnt lose

    -18. Qg3 f5 seems very well for black.
      
    If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #305 - 08/15/06 at 18:25:46
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    Quote:
    I am not sure g6 can equalize. For instance: 20.Df2 Tfc8?!(I believe this rook belongs to the e8 square) 21. Qh4 a5 22.Te1 I think white has a winning advantage because white can push his f-pawn after for example a5.


    Quote:
    21...a5 is a blunder here since White can simply reply 22.Qxh7+.  I think 21...Nf8 is necessary in this line.  Was a pair of moves inadvertantly omitted?


    Yes of course, 21...Nf8 is the right move 22.Re1  a5 23. f5 with advantage for white
      
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #304 - 08/15/06 at 18:08:19
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    986 wrote on 08/15/06 at 09:04:50:
    @Willempie:  Cheesy

    Quote:
    After 17.Qxe3!? Bxc3 18.Rh3 g6! (instead of h6) because White has not the g5-gxh6 moves, and 19.bxc3 Qc7 to follow (forbidding the f4-f5 push; and preparing Rfc8-Nf8)


    I am not sure g6 can equalize. For instance: 20.Df2 Tfc8?!(I believe this rook belongs to the e8 square) 21. Qh4 a5 22.Te1 I think white has a winning advantage because white can push his f-pawn after for example a5.

    Cheers,
    Tom  Smiley

    21...a5 is a blunder here since White can simply reply 22.Qxh7+.  I think 21...Nf8 is necessary in this line.  Was a pair of moves inadvertantly omitted?
      
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
    Reply #303 - 08/15/06 at 16:04:48
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    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1


    current position


    An overview of recent discussion:
    The main line under discussion now is 14...Na5 (dom's recommendation) 15.Rg3 (a new idea by 986) 15...Nc4 (should 15...Nxb3+ also be under consideration?) 16.Qe1 Nxe3 and now there are two branches where dom is recommending a defensive setup based on ...g6, ...Qc7, ...Rfc8, and ...Nf8.  These branches are:

    • 17.Qxe3 (986) 17...Bxc3 18.Rh3 g6! (dom)
    • 17.Rh3 (986) 17...g6 (dom) 
      [Edit: Note that after 18.Qxe3 (which seems best) 18...Bxc3 the second line tranposes into the first one and we are back to one line again.]


    I haven't seen any discussion of 14...Rc8 where I think 15.Rg3 Na5 might be another important line.
    « Last Edit: 08/15/06 at 17:54:54 by OstapBender »  
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
    Reply #302 - 08/15/06 at 15:53:24
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    Willempie wrote on 08/15/06 at 15:11:47:
    That'll teach me to look one move deeper next time Grin


    Most games are decided because someone didn't look one move deeper  Cheesy
      
    Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

    Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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