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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 358850 times)
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #421 - 10/11/06 at 08:28:15
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I dont trust this position for White - natural Bd4 should have been played earlier  Wink

Now I dont really care what all the engines say - ...Qh4 is a natural disruptive move, very common in this type of position in the Sicilian - play it!
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #420 - 10/11/06 at 01:35:09
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As 17...Nxe5 and 17...g6 do not seem playable either, we came to the conclusion, that 16...Qh4 is Black's last hope. Of course it is also possible, that Black is dead lost.  Wink
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #419 - 10/10/06 at 18:57:10
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castlerock wrote on 10/10/06 at 07:47:59:
Willempie wrote on 08/15/06 at 19:08:09:
OstapBender wrote on 08/15/06 at 16:04:48:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1
  • 17.Rh3 (986) 17...g6 (dom) 

    • I (well me and a colleague, unfortunately not going by a German name) further checked this line:
    17...Nxg4 
    -18. Bxh7+ Kh8 19. Qg3 (If there is something better it must be here) Nh6 20. Rg1 Rg8 (should be enough) 21. Bxg8 Qxg8 22. f5 Qh7 23. Nd4 (so far all 986's line) and now Bc5 should win. A very nice line runs: 24. f6 Bxd4 25. Qxg7+ Qxg7 26. Rxg7 Nxf6 27.exf6 Bxf6 28. Rxf7 Bg5+ 29. Kd1 Bc6 30. Rh5 d4 and I wouldnt know the exact evaluation but black certainly shouldnt lose


    This is what I was hoping to see. I think willempie's line trashes 17.Rh3. I think 16...Nxe3 is better. Thanks for the help,Ostapbender.


    I think Willempie's 23...Bc5 is a strong move.  Previous moves are 986's original line, but there a couple of places where this line can be improved.  A couple of suggested improvements (moves highlighted above) are:

    21.Nd4 (instead of 986's 21.Bxg8) was analyzed by whiteatak shredder:
    Quote:
    Similarly, after (14…Na5 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Qe1 Nxe3 17.Rh3) ...Nxg4 18.Bxh7 Kxh8 19.Qg3 Nh6 20.Rg1 Rg8 21.Nd4! Bc5 22.Nce2, its conclusion after analyzing this position for hours was that white is winning – playing 23. Nxe6! after many of black’s moves such as 22…a5 or 22…Kxh7; or after 22…Qf8, playing 23.Bxg8 Qxg8 24.b4!


    This is enough unless someone can punch a hole in the analysis, but I also think 23.f6 (instead of 986's 23.Nd4) may also be an improvement.
      
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    castlerock
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #418 - 10/10/06 at 07:47:59
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    Willempie wrote on 08/15/06 at 19:08:09:
    OstapBender wrote on 08/15/06 at 16:04:48:
    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1
  • 17.Rh3 (986) 17...g6 (dom) 

    • I (well me and a colleague, unfortunately not going by a German name) further checked this line:
    17...Nxg4 
    -18. Bxh7+ Kh8 19. Qg3 (If there is something better it must be here) Nh6 20. Rg1 Rg8 (should be enough) 21. Bxg8 Qxg8 22. f5 Qh7 23. Nd4 (so far all 986's line) and now Bc5 should win. A very nice line runs: 24. f6 Bxd4 25. Qxg7+ Qxg7 26. Rxg7 Nxf6 27.exf6 Bxf6 28. Rxf7 Bg5+ 29. Kd1 Bc6 30. Rh5 d4 and I wouldnt know the exact evaluation but black certainly shouldnt lose

    -18. Qg3 f5 seems very well for black.


    This is what I was hoping to see. I think willempie's line trashes 17.Rh3. I think 16...Nxe3 is better. Thanks for the help,Ostapbender.
      
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #417 - 10/10/06 at 06:13:52
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    castlerock wrote on 10/10/06 at 02:19:21:
    Thanks Ostapbender, I'm still unable to find a detailed analysis, though. If you can indicate the page numbet I would be grateful. I did come across an analysis by dom with 17. Rh3 for which he considers 17...g6. What about materialistic 17...Nxg4? After ...Nh6,...Rg8,...Qxg8 all attacks would stop. Remember Petrosian's famous Qg1 defense?

    See posts on pages 20-22 for most of the analysis of 16...Nxe3.  After this attention started to shift toward other lines, eventually focusing on 16...Qh4.

    17...Nxg4 that you mention above comes up in the posts:
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/285/#287
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/300/#306
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/315/#317

    A couple of other specific links to posts discussing lines based on 16...Nxe3:
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/285/#294
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/285/#297
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/300/#300
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/300/#303
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/300/#308
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/300/#311
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/300/#312
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/315/#321
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/315/#322

      
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    castlerock
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #416 - 10/10/06 at 02:19:21
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    Thanks Ostapbender, I'm still unable to find a detailed analysis, though. If you can indicate the page numbet I would be grateful. I did come across an analysis by dom with 17. Rh3 for which he considers 17...g6. What about materialistic 17...Nxg4? After ...Nh6,...Rg8,...Qxg8 all attacks would stop. Remember Petrosian's famous Qg1 defense?
      
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #415 - 10/09/06 at 18:40:08
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    castlerock wrote on 10/09/06 at 18:15:55:
    Just an ignorant question. Has 16...Qh4 been played? I don't see any analysis of 16...Ne3 in the last 2 or 3 pages. Personally I like 16...Nxe3 better. After 17.Rxe3 Rc8 18.Rh3 g6 black can play f6,Re8 and Bxc3 in varying move orders depending on what white plays.

    16...Qh4 has not been played.

    The last move (16.Qe1) was made back on September 9: 
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/360/#368

    The line 14...Na5 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Qe1 was suggested in this post:
    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/270/#283

    and discussion/analysis of 16...Nxe3 (the first line we considered) immediately followed this post.  While I don't think we absolutely ruled out 16...Nxe3 (it's quite complicated) the lines analyzed seemed to be very favorable for White and, subsequently 16...Qh4 emerged as the frontrunner.
    « Last Edit: 10/09/06 at 19:41:49 by OstapBender »  
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    castlerock
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #414 - 10/09/06 at 18:15:55
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    Just an ignorant question. Has 16...Qh4 been played? I don't see any analysis of 16...Ne3 in the last 2 or 3 pages. Personally I like 16...Nxe3 better. After 17.Rxe3 Rc8 18.Rh3 g6 black can play f6,Re8 and Bxc3 in varying move orders depending on what white plays.
      
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
    Reply #413 - 10/05/06 at 05:43:56
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    Hello,

    An alternative to 16....Qh5 17.Bd4 is 16....Qh5 17.Qf1 Bxc3 18.Rh3=. I believe this is the negative aspect of 16....Qh5. If Black does not want to take a draw, the candidate moves are:
    17.Qf1 Nxe3!? and now white has a choice between 18.Rxe3(best) and 18.Rh3=. The trade of Blacks strongest piece(Knight) don't make any sense.
    17.Qf1 Rfc8 18.Ne2 with idea of asking the Black Queen the question. 2 Rooks?
    17.Qf1 Rfd8 18.Ne2
    17.Qf1 Qe7
    17.Qf1 Qd8
    17.Qf1 f6 18.Bd4
    All the variations except for the drawing line looks favorable for White.

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    castlerock
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #412 - 10/04/06 at 05:48:01
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    OstapBender wrote on 10/03/06 at 17:53:53:

    It's not pgn format, but you have the moves and the current position. 


    Thanks OstapBender. I think, it is pgn readable. Chessbase can straight away read it, me thinks. Anyway, I’ll have 2 or 3 hrs today during game 7 and I’ll see if I can add to the confusion.
      
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #411 - 10/04/06 at 04:07:37
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    Thanks. This is an interesting game you've been playing. Please, no hurry. Again, I'm not sure if 16...Qh4 is the best. I'm just a 2000 rated patzer. I'm interested with this 2772 rated machine I have here though, and what lines it suggests in these positions.  Smiley
      
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
    Reply #410 - 10/04/06 at 02:55:33
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    whiteatak shredder,

    You've made some excellent suggestions recently which, unfortunately, I haven't had the time to dig into very deeply due to time constraints (mainly) and laziness (if I am to be completely honest Roll Eyes).  For the sake of "efficiency" (sounds better than laziness  Grin) I had intended to put off further analysis of possible moves for Black (e.g., 16...Qh4) until one of them appeared on the board.  If such is not the case by this weekend, I will try to set aside some time (at least an hour or two) to analyze some of the new lines/ideas you've presented and let you know my thoughts about assessments, possible improvements, or whatever else which turns up in my analysis.

    Thanks for keeping this thread alive!

    Cheers,
    Ostap
      
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #409 - 10/04/06 at 02:00:08
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    OstapBender wrote on 09/12/06 at 17:42:05:
    After 16...Qh4 17.Bd4 Rfc8 18.Qf1 Qe7 (since 18...Nf8? 19.g5! looks winning for White) 19.Kb1 (19.Rh3!?) 19...a5 (is this Black's best?) 20.Rh3 I think 20...Nf8 21.f5 looks just deadly for Black, so Black probably has to play 20...g6 here (stopping f4-f5).  After 19.Rh3 (which I haven't had time to analyze yet) I think Black also needs to play 19...g6 since 19...Nf8 seems to be just asking for the same kind of trouble after 20.f5.  I'm not sure that Black can hold the position after 20...g6 (or 19...g6 if the move pair Kb1/...a5 is omitted), but this is the defense I will be focusing my analysis on right now.


    I've had my chess engine running for dozens of hours analyzing these lines, and I must admit that these lines do look quite strong for white, although I still think that black is probably ok with the new lines I propose here. Nevertheless I'm impressed with your judgement of these lines as being good for white. For instance, in many lines I've analyzed, the rook does seem very well placed on h3. It can sack on h7 in some lines, for instance. In fact, one of the reasons why I think that after 19.Kb1 that 19...g6 is probably best is that the rook is strongly drawn to the h3 square anyway, and why not make this move now and see what white does next before comitting to any more moves (as black).

    After 20.Rh3 I now think that 20...a5 probably loses for black, as 21.Nxb5 is strong. I think white's kingside is too well fortified by his pieces for black to have enough compensation for the pawn. So I propose 20...Bc6 protecting the b-pawn, and thus making way for the advance of black's a-pawn. It may be that  black can't hold this position, but I still think that black can probably survive. If 21.f5 then I like 21...Ncxe5 and if 22.Qf4 then 22...Nxd3 removing white's light squared bishop. If 21.a3 then Shredder likes sacking the bishop with 21...Bxa3 22.bxa3 Nxa3, with a possible continuation being 23.Ka2 a5 24.f5 Nc4, and it would remain to be seen if black's queenside pawns would prove strong enough to maintain the balance. I would think they probably would.

    After 19.Rh3 g6 I still think that 20.Kb1 is the strongest move. Does anyone have other suggestions? I'm also not sure that 16...Qh4 is the best move anymore, but would still perhaps place my bets on it for it being the strongest.
      
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #408 - 10/03/06 at 17:53:53
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    castlerock wrote on 10/03/06 at 17:32:32:
    For the benefit of late entrants (curious onlookers?) like me, could someone post the move order thus far in pgn format? It's a pain to navigate 28 pages to construct the game.

    Here you go:

    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1 Na5 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Qe1


    current position


    It's not pgn format, but you have the moves and the current position.  I haven't updated the position in a while, since the last move (mine) was made back on September 9:

    http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152709519/360/#368


      
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    Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
    Reply #407 - 10/03/06 at 17:32:32
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    For the benefit of late entrants (curious onlookers?) like me, could someone post the move order thus far in pgn format? It's a pain to navigate 28 pages to construct the game.
      
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