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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 344226 times)
OstapBender
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #451 - 01/11/07 at 06:51:34
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1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1 Na5 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Qe1 Qh4 17.Bd4 Rfc8 18.Qf1 Qe7


current position


At this point I see my candidate moves as:
  • 19.Kb1
  • 19.Qh3
  • 19.Rh3
  • 19.Bxh7+


Yes, I have the bishop sac on my list!  Although this runs counter to my initial intuitive assessment (i.e., "shouldn't be sound because White cannot bring up reinforcements quickly enough"), my contention is that after 19.Bxh7+ Kxh7 20.Qh3+ Kg8 21.g5


analysis position


White has substantial compensation for the piece (the key is the harmonious placement of White's remaining pieces  Wink).  I will try to back this up with some analysis in later posts.  In the meantime, I'm interested to hear any thoughts on this (preferably supported by specific ideas/analysis), and I'm more than happy to try and shoot down any ideas for Black's defense.

I'm not asserting (yet) that the bishop sac is White's best move, however I will claim that it is far too strong (and interesting!) not to be considered.

Thanks to Keano for putting the bishop sac idea in my head.  (I take full blame, however, for overstating its strength should it ultimately prove to be unsound.)
  

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whiteatak shredder
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #450 - 01/11/07 at 05:41:14
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My move is 18...Qe7. I think it's better for playing space invaders on black's king than 18...Qd8. (lol) 

After 19.Kb1, which I think could very well be the best move, I don't trust 19...BxN yet as I don't like giving up black's dark-squared bishop that easily -- it is often sorely missed in these french pawn structure endings (especially with white's dark-squared B still on the board). And as for 19...a5, I don't quite trust it either. For instance, what about 20.Qh3? If 20...g6 then 21.Nxb5 looks strong to me (white has a lot of pieces protecting his kingside) and if 20...Nf8 then 21.f5 a4 (what else?) 22.f6 Qc7 23.Nd2 and I think white is much better, however I'm open to suggested improvements.

Regards,
WAS
  
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MNb
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #449 - 01/11/07 at 01:15:10
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My absolutely unreliable analysis runs 19.Kb1
a) 19...Bxc3 20.Bxc3 b4 21.Bd4 a5 22.Qh3 Nf8 23.f5 and the space invaders are too slow.
b) 19...a5 20.Rh3 Nf8 21.f5 a4 22.f6 Qd8 (might be an argument pro 18...Qd8) 23.fxg7 Kxg7 24.Nd2 a3 25.Qf4.
  

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Keano
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #448 - 01/10/07 at 11:00:36
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Seeing as the engines did not spot an immediate catastrophe - I would vote for 18...Qe7 also. 

MnB - 19.Kb1 then what is the position like after 19...Bxc3!? (also the immediate 19...a5!? looks reasonably promising) 20.Bxc3 b4 21.Bd4 a5, and my space invaders are coming with ...a4 next
  
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whiteatak shredder
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #447 - 01/10/07 at 05:24:06
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18...Qe7 is a bit better than 18...Qd8 according to my analysis with Shredder. There are also some fun lines where black attacks on the queenside with his pawns and his queen is well posted there on e7. And no, 19.f5 and 19.Bxf7 don't work -- just yet. I think 18...Qe7 is a more active square for the queen than d8, as well as I think being safe, so I will play it probably tomorrow, if no one can post analysis that will lead me to change my mind.

Regards.
  
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MNb
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #446 - 01/09/07 at 21:08:26
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19.Bxh7+ does not work. After both 18...Qd8 and 18...Qe7 I like 19.Kb1, further preparing x.f5. But there is another plan to be considered: 19.Qh3 Nf8 20.Qh5 idea 21.Rh3. It looks like Black has to play 20...g6 21.Qh6 and then f4-f5 becomes very attractive. We get something like 18...Qe7 19.Qh3 Nf8 20.Qh5 g6 21.Qh6 Qc7 (threatening 22...Nxb2) and maybe now 22.f5. Alas I don't have the time to figure out all lines - sometimes the king should be on b1 eg because of ...Nxe5xd3+.
  

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OstapBender
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #445 - 01/09/07 at 17:57:18
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Keano,

Glad to have you participating in our recently resurrected game!

I think either 18...Qe7 or 18...Qd8 should be played.  There are subtle differences between the two and it is difficult to say which is better (I've concentrated more on 18...Qe7 in my analysis).  Although Black's queenside play should not be underestimated, I think your "space invaders" scenerio might be just a tad optimistic. 

Unless I missed something, 18...Nf8 is pretty much refuted by 19.g5 cutting off the black queen's retreat.

I hadn't even considered the Bxh7+ sac (after say 18...Qe7).  My impression is that it shouldn't be sound because White cannot bring up reinforcements quickly enough.  However, this idea should not be discarded without a bit of analysis - which I will be sure to do!
  

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Keano
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #444 - 01/09/07 at 16:28:54
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This all seems like logical play, now after causing a certain disharmony in the White troops maybe it is time to retreat with 18...Qe7!?  Can the guys with engines check this, if there is some danger with f5-f6 then maybe safer is 18...Qd8!? - then h7 will be covered with ...Nf8, mean while Black intends something simple and primitive like ...Bxc3, ..a5, ...b4 (attacking c3), ...a4 (attacking b3), and just like space invaders we will land with ...b3 and mop up. Too optimistic!? I just cant see any harmony in the White position but maybe the engines will prove me wrong. If the Bxh7+ sac works then maybe we have to look at ..Nf8 straight away and keep some nuisance value with the queen
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #443 - 01/09/07 at 09:07:18
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whiteatak shredder,

My next move is 18.Qf1

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1 Na5 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Qe1 Qh4 17.Bd4 Rfc8 18.Qf1


current position


It was a tough choice between this move and 18.f5, which I also think may also prove to be a decent option.  For the most part 18.f5 was more straightforward and easier to calculate, but I like the positions I saw arising from 18.Qf1 a bit better.
  

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MNb
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #442 - 01/08/07 at 20:20:31
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I don't like 18.f5 here, because White's pieces are not ready yet. Black simply can ignore: a5 19.Nd2 (but if you can make 19.f6 work, I am dead wrong) Bxc3 20.Bxc3 Nxd2 21.Qxd2 b4 or Nc5.
18.a3 feels wrong, though I don't have a clear line for Black. Bf8 looks good.
18.Qf2 does not appeal either. It must be inferior to 18.Qf1, which also prepares f4-f5 and threatens Rh3.

So imo it's either 18.Qf1 or the subtle 18.Kb1.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #441 - 01/08/07 at 04:12:55
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OstapBender wrote on 01/08/07 at 03:59:14:
At this point I see my candidate moves as:
  • 18.f5
  • 18.Qf1
  • 18.Qf2
  • 18.a3
  • 18.Kb1



If I were playing white, that would probably be my order for what I think the strongest moves would be, at least for the first two. I admit that after 18.f5 black is fighting for the draw; for 18.Qf2 I think that would be the same but less so.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #440 - 01/08/07 at 03:59:14
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At this point I see my candidate moves as:
  • 18.f5
  • 18.Qf1
  • 18.Qf2
  • 18.a3
  • 18.Kb1


I've been looking at 18.f5 and it appears to be a bit better than I remembered it being when we originally considered it.  This is definitely the move I want to play (appeals to my caveman side), but I suspect this pawn push could prove stronger a few moves later.

I also like 18.Qf1 which I'm starting to explore a bit deeper at the moment.  I like the threat of Rh3 and the idea of forcing the black queen to retreat from it's obstruction square (h4).

The other three candidate moves listed are not ones which I'm terribly inclined to play at the moment, but they look reasonable enough not to be discarded without at least a cursory look and bit of analysis.
  

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whiteatak shredder
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #439 - 01/06/07 at 01:00:53
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Thanks Ostap.

I'm sorry to be so hasty, but since the overwhelming amount of analysis here has been on 17...Rfc8 -- and since there's been a lot of time to analyze other moves from this position -- I'm going to play it. I like how it attacks on the queenside and vacates the f8 square for the king.

So, here is my move: 17...Rfc8.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #438 - 01/05/07 at 21:37:13
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1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1 Na5 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Qe1 Qh4 17.Bd4


current position


After looking over past analysis things seem a tad less clear than I thought I remembered from several months ago, but I haven't found any reason not to like 17.Bd4 so here it is.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #437 - 12/25/06 at 15:00:54
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I don't remember all of my analysis, but I thought that 17.Bd4 followed quickly by f4-f5 was simply too much for Black's kingside.  Rather than Black giving up pawns, I saw White sacking pawns to get through to the king.   

I'll try to piece together my analysis over the next week, but I'm discovering that the snow days at the end of the semester have really messed up my Christmas break.  (The time that I thought I had to prepare for next semester will be spent patching together the remains of the Fall semester with as little heartache for the students as possible.)
  
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