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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 344189 times)
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #481 - 01/24/07 at 05:28:50
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I wasn't terribly impressed with White's Qf1.  However now it's on the board, there are at least two consistent continuations:  20.Rh3 intending Rh6 and Qh3 (a very potent line-up, but not invincible) and 20.h4 with the idea of a massive pawn storm.  The two moves I like least for White are the Knight moves (pace, Bob Seger and Christopher Lambert).   

20.f5 still looks like fun in a blitz game, but probably doesn't work here.   


Off the top of my head, I'd prefer 20.h4 and go for blood.

Thanks Whiteatak for continuing this game as Black!
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #480 - 01/24/07 at 01:30:48
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OstapBender wrote on 01/23/07 at 01:50:01:
26...g5[/color] (whiteatak shredder's 26...Bc5 also worries me a bit) 27.fxg5 Qxg5 or the immediate 24...g5 (iso 24...cxb3)?  I'm not saying White is in danger in these lines, but I'm having trouble convincing myself that Black is suffering.

It's certainly possible that I may be underestimating Black's play in the 20.Rh3 line (I hope not!), but at least I have an idea of what White's trumps are and how I should proceed.

I'll try to get a better handle on 20.h4 and, if I can, I might be convinced to play it.  Right now, however, the merits of the line just elude me.  Forgive me if I'm just being obtuse - it's not deliberate.


I fail to see, that there is anything to forgive ... I already wrote, that my analysis was superficial. On 25...Ba6 26.Qf3 g5 I relied on 27.Qe3 but failed to notice Rc6 28.fxg5 Rac8. So if anyone is obtuse, than me. (Thanks, Ostap, I have learned a new word in English.  Wink )
It looks like Black's manoeuvre Qd8-h4-e7 has paid off.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #479 - 01/23/07 at 02:34:55
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Please feel free to take your time analyzing this position. I think there are many possibilities for what could be played, and I'd rather have a quality game than a quick game.

Regards,
WAS
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #478 - 01/23/07 at 01:50:01
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MNb wrote on 01/23/07 at 00:29:12:
Maybe it is just me, but after 20.Rh3 a5 Black's attack looks quite frigtening to me. I am not sure about 20.Ne2 a5 21.c3 a4 either.
My superficial analysis runs 20.h4 a5 21.h5 a4 22.Bxc4 (not hxg6 too soon) bxc4 23.Nd2 a3 24.b3 cxb3 25.cxb3 (with 22.hxg6 fxg6 included Black has 26...Rf8!?, which now is met with 26.f5) and no matter what computers say, I like White here.

It's been a while since I looked at it, but I remember not liking the idea of allowing Black to keep the h-file closed by playing  ...g5.  After 25...Ba6 26.Qf3, have you looked at 26...g5 (whiteatak shredder's 26...Bc5 also worries me a bit) 27.fxg5 Qxg5 or the immediate 24...g5 (iso 24...cxb3)?  I'm not saying White is in danger in these lines, but I'm having trouble convincing myself that Black is suffering.

It's certainly possible that I may be underestimating Black's play in the 20.Rh3 line (I hope not!), but at least I have an idea of what White's trumps are and how I should proceed.

I'll try to get a better handle on 20.h4 and, if I can, I might be convinced to play it.  Right now, however, the merits of the line just elude me.  Forgive me if I'm just being obtuse - it's not deliberate.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #477 - 01/23/07 at 00:29:12
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Maybe it is just me, but after 20.Rh3 a5 Black's attack looks quite frigtening to me. I am not sure about 20.Ne2 a5 21.c3 a4 either.
My superficial analysis runs 20.h4 a5 21.h5 a4 22.Bxc4 (not hxg6 too soon) bxc4 23.Nd2 a3 24.b3 cxb3 25.cxb3 (with 22.hxg6 fxg6 included Black has 26...Rf8!?, which now is met with 26.f5) and no matter what computers say, I like White here.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #476 - 01/22/07 at 21:58:11
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whiteatak shredder,

Over the weekend, I was able to make a little headway on analyzing possibilities for White's next move.
Based on what I've looked at so far, I think it is quite likely that 20.Rh3 will be my choice.

I still need to look at the other candidate moves a bit deeper (particularly the two knight moves) to ensure I'm not passing over stronger continuation.  A few more hours over the next several days should be enough to get everything sorted out and definitely commit to a move.

Cheers,
Ostap
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #475 - 01/18/07 at 15:48:59
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After 19...g6 we have

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1 Na5 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Qe1 Qh4 17.Bd4 Rfc8 18.Qf1 Qe7 19.Kb1 19.g6


current position


Candidate moves:
  • 20.Rh3 – Has already been deemed "too slow" in a previous post, but Rh6-Qh3 (not yet discussed?) might be interesting.
  • 20.Qh3 – tempting, but very complicated.  Right now I still have this down as unclear.
  • 20.h4 – also tempting, but Black’s pawn storm may be quicker.  I like the idea, but it still needs some work.
  • 20.Nd2 – trying to do something with worst placed piece.  The main line seems to be 20…Na3+ 21.Kc1 Bxc3 22.Bxc3 Rxc3 23.bxc3 Rc8 which whiteatak shredder considers about equal, but I think (hope!) that this assessment is too optimistic for Black.
  • 20.Ne2 – intending either a2-a3 (have to watch out for …Bxa2 sac) or c2-c3 to embarrass the b4-bishop.
There might be some other possibilities, but these seem to be the main ones.  The first four have already been mentioned in previous posts (20.Qh3, in particular, has been extensively analyzed); the last one, 20.Ne2, is a new idea which I think might have some merit.

There's a lot to think about and I'm not sure how much time I'll have to work through it all as my job workload has increased somewhat (I'm also a bit distracted by Corus!).  I will try to make some headway over the weekend.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #474 - 01/18/07 at 04:50:10
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O.k. well, I guess I'll make my move now. It's 19...g6.

Cheers.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #473 - 01/17/07 at 20:22:56
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I also think 19...g6 is best. I reject 19...Nc5 without analyzing on principled grounds: it offers to exchange White's worst piece.
After 19...g6 White has an important choice to make: the stereotypical storm h2-h4-h5 or go for f4-f5 anyway.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #472 - 01/17/07 at 16:46:29
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Quote:
Hi guys,

My move will almost certainly be 19...g6 as I've analyzed it extensively on my computer, and the bishop sac threat is now stronger than I'd expected. 



Having looked at this position a bit and considered the alternatives I fully agree with you :

19...g6! is the most interesting move in the position, remaining flexible for the time being and playing a useful defensive move (Willempie - I dont think f5 works straight away for White - which is one of the points of keeping the Black Knight on d7)

So I vote 19...g6 also
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #471 - 01/17/07 at 16:33:16
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As for the 19...Nc5!? line - the following endgame looks tenable for Black at first sight, although not exactly inspiring:

19...Nc5 20. Nxc5 Bxc5 21. Ne2 a5 22. f5 Bxd4 23. Nxd4 exf5 24. Qxf5 g6 25. Qf6 Re8 26. Qxe7
Rxe7 27. b3 Na3 28. Kb2 b4 29. Re3 Rae8 30. Rde1 Bc8 31. h3 Kg7
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #470 - 01/17/07 at 16:15:31
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I think first I will reject the space invaders line now that I look at....
19... Bxc3?! 20. Bxc3 b4 21. Bd4 a5 22. Rh3 g6 23. Nd2!? Nxd2 24. Rxd2 a4 25. f5 b3 (the invaders land, but...) 26. cxb3 axb3 27. a3 (closing the queenside) Nc5 28. Qf4! seems like big problems
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #469 - 01/17/07 at 16:01:56
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what about 19....Nc5!? I suppose that typical move must be considered - What aare you planning then? something positional I suppose like 20.Nxc5 Bxc5 21. Ne2!?
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #468 - 01/17/07 at 15:12:01
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g6 is asking for f5, no matter if it is correct Grin

I am without decent time to check anything properly but f5 or h4 look dangerous now
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #467 - 01/17/07 at 14:12:54
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But isnt grabbing the b-pawn somewhat risky for White? a pawn here or there is not going to bother me too much at this stage - the key is that magical word "COUNTERPLAY". If I can get that I´ll be happy. Mind you - I will check it becaus I am still wiorried by Whites attacking chances so ...g6 or ..Nf8 first could be the correct order. Also I am fond of the ...Bxc3 concept, strategically it can also work out well if later in the day ...Ba6 can be arranged as in the main Steinitz line.
  
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