Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 40
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 344199 times)
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #511 - 02/08/07 at 00:37:14
Post Tools
Well, I've finally decided on 21.f5.  Although I favored 21.Rh6 at first, I started hearing this Obewan-like voice in my head saying:

"Trust your feelings.  Use the f-pawn, Ostap."

(or maybe it was an MNb-like voice!)

And suddenly it dawned on me: f is for force!

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Bb4 12.Bd3 b5 13.g4 Bb7 14.Rhg1 Na5 15.Rg3 Nc4 16.Qe1 Qh4 17.Bd4 Rfc8 18.Qf1 Qe7 19.Kb1 g6 20.Rh3 Bc6 21.f5


current position


As far as Black's responses go, I've looked mainly at the two captures 21...Ncxe5 and 21...Ndxe5.  It appears to me that the capturing with the c4-knight might be Black's best try.  I also looked at 21...Qg5 focusing on 22.Qe2 Bf8, which had me a bit worried for a while.  I now think White should be OK after Bxc4 (either right away or perhaps after a useful waiting move).  White can probably gain time to improve his pieces by forcing Black's queen to retreat from g5 (Be3 followed by Nd4 is one attractive possibility).

Overall I would still call this position unclear (too much going on to calculate all possibilities), but I like White's chances for seizing the initiative on the kingside.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #510 - 02/07/07 at 13:10:24
Post Tools
As a sidenote, here's quite an interesting article on 11.Qf2:
http://www.chesscafe.com/langrock/langrock.htm
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #509 - 02/07/07 at 02:39:17
Post Tools
After 21.f5 Qg5 22.Qe2, I looked at 22...Ncxe5 and White definitely has nothing to fear here:

Instead of playing 23.fxe6 (which also has it's points), White can just capture the knight: 23.Bxe5 Nxe5 24.Qxe5

24...Qxg4 loses to 25.fxg6! Qxh3 26.gxh7+ Kf8 27.h8Q+

Alternatively, 24…Bxc3 25.bxc3

And here 25...Qxg4 loses to the same move: 26.fxg6! 

Neither rook capture works:
26...Qxd1+ 27.Kb2 h5 28.Rxh5 and wins.
26...Qxh3 27.gxh7+ Kf8 28.h8Q+ and wins.

So Black has nothing better than 26...fxg6 which loses to 27.Bxg6!

Most other moves can be answered by something simple like 26.Qg3 and Black is just a piece down.

So, after 21.f5 Qg5 22.Qe2 I think Black's best try might be 22...Bf8.  This is the move I'm focusing on at the moment, anyway.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #508 - 02/06/07 at 23:39:58
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 02/06/07 at 21:26:36:
21...Qg5 22.Qe2 Ncxe5 23.fxe6 fxe6 24.Re3 Nxd3 25.cxd3 and Black has a little problem with the black squares.

Thanks, that was fast!

I also thought 22.Qe2 should be a good answer to 21...Qg5, but haven't examined any specific lines just yet (this will have to wait until tonight).  I would guess that if Black has nothing better than continuing with a capture on e5, then 21...Qg5 will not be a problem.  21.f5 is looking very likely indeed!
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10779
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #507 - 02/06/07 at 21:26:36
Post Tools
21...Qg5 22.Qe2 Ncxe5 23.fxe6 fxe6 24.Re3 Nxd3 25.cxd3 and Black has a little problem with the black squares.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #506 - 02/06/07 at 21:01:47
Post Tools
Thanks WAS,

I had a good trip.  After getting back, I spent a little time on the line 21.f5 Ncxe5 
(I'm now convinced that this is the best capture; after 21...Ndxe5, the c4-knight is not so much an aggressively placed piece as it is a target.)

Following 22.Re1 Bd6 23.fxe6 fxe6 24.Rhe3 b4 25.Nd1 I think White is fine after either 25...Rf8 26.Qe2 or the less ambitious 25...Qf7.

Although it looks like 21...Ncxe5 is almost certainly Black's best move, tonight I will analyze a couple of alternatives to capturing on e5 just to make sure I'm not overlooking some "hidden" defensive or counterattacking resource.  Of these 21...Bxc3 can probably be ruled out on general principles, but 21...Qg5 might be interesting.  Unless 21...Qg5 (or some other move) proves to be the "hidden resource" I'm worried about, I will probably choose 21.f5.  (If necessary, I'm still happy with 21.Rh6 as a back-up).

If any kibitzers out there have any thoughts regarding alternatives to Black capturing on e5 (after 21.f5), I'd be very interested (and grateful) to hear about them.

Cheers,
Ostap
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
whiteatak shredder
Junior Member
**
Offline


French Hedgehog

Posts: 72
Joined: 08/12/06
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #505 - 02/05/07 at 02:13:42
Post Tools
Ostap,

Please take all the time you need to make your move. I'm rather busy at the moment, so I'm in no hurry whatsoever about your making your move.

Best regards,
WAS
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #504 - 01/31/07 at 22:56:55
Post Tools
whiteatak shredder,

I will be out town this weekend, and don't expect to have my next move worked out before I leave.  It's MNb's fault for showing 21.f5 to be more promising than I had orginally thought.  Wink

In the likely event that I am not able to post my move tonight, then I the earliest that I might have it will be Monday or Tuesday of next week.  Just wanted to pass on this info so you know what to expect.  (As you've no doubt already gathered, my move will almost certainly be either 21.Rh6 or 21.f5 - I'm just not sure which one!)

Cheers,
Ostap
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #503 - 01/31/07 at 05:28:55
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 01/31/07 at 01:33:44:
Another funny line: 21.f5 Ncxe5 22.Re1 Nxd3 23.Rxh7 e5 24.Qh3 Qf6 (iso Qg5) 25.cxd3 exd4 26.g5 Qxg5 27.Nxd4 and now White has solved the passivity of his problem knight, his attack is decisive! But 22...Bd6 23.fxe6 fxe6 (maybe even Qxe6 ?) 24.Rhe3 b4 25.Nd1 also must be investigated.

After 21.f5 Ncxe5 22.Re1, 22...Bd6 looks like a good defense.  This seems to be another example where 21...Ncxe5 is the preferred capture.  White's prospects after 21.f5 Ndxe5 22.Re1 Bd6 look quite good after 23.Bxc4.

Quote:
21.Rh6 Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7 23.Nd2 Bf8 24.Rh4 Be7 looks like a draw. I dislike 23.g5 very much. How is White going to make any progress? As far as I can see Black will grab the initiative after a5 24.Qg3 a4 25.Nc1 Bf8. That having said, I was completely mistaken about 23.Re1 a5 24.f5 as a4 is strong again.

After 21.Rh6 Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7 23.Nd2 Bf8, 24.g5 seems to offer White good prospects.  In the line 21.Rh6 Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7 23.g5 (a move which may be better than it looks) 23...a5, I have 24.Nd2 and White seems to do well after 24...Bxc3, 24...Bc5 or 24...Be7.

Quote:
So I tend to 21.f5 more and more.

As long as I can work out a good response to 21.f5 Ncxe5 22.Re1 Bd6 (and I think I will based on either 23.fxe6 or 23.fxg6), then 21.f5 remains a very likely choice.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10779
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #502 - 01/31/07 at 01:33:44
Post Tools
Never mind, I know you by now and did not feel hurt or something.  Smiley And be sure, that I will keep you busy with my impulsive ideas.  Wink So feel free to reject my suggestions as the rubbish it sometimes is.  Cheesy

Another funny line: 21.f5 Ncxe5 22.Re1 Nxd3 23.Rxh7 e5 24.Qh3 Qf6 (iso Qg5) 25.cxd3 exd4 26.g5 Qxg5 27.Nxd4 and now White has solved the passivity of his problem knight, his attack is decisive! But 22...Bd6 23.fxe6 fxe6 (maybe even Qxe6 ?) 24.Rhe3 b4 25.Nd1 also must be investigated.

21.Rh6 Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7 23.Nd2 Bf8 24.Rh4 Be7 looks like a draw. I dislike 23.g5 very much. How is White going to make any progress? As far as I can see Black will grab the initiative after a5 24.Qg3 a4 25.Nc1 Bf8. That having said, I was completely mistaken about 23.Re1 a5 24.f5 as a4 is strong again.

So I tend to 21.f5 more and more.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #501 - 01/30/07 at 22:48:10
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 01/30/07 at 20:35:15:
Dear Ostap,

let me make one thing clear once and for all. The lines I produce are more or less wild guesses. I do not pretend to have found optimal play for both sides at all; for something like that I by far do not spend enough time. I am a pure kibitzer: what about this, what about that?
1. When I asked, have you looked at 23...Bf8, I meant after every random White move you might have had in mind.
2. If you don't know the logic behind moves like 23.Nd2 and 23.g5, how do you expect me to know the logic behind the moves I propose? I intuitively just feel, that White must strive for f4-f5 - so I might be dead wrong, as my intuition quite often fails me.
So I simply can't answer your questions. I only hope to steer your thoughts in a path worth trodding and bring up a few suggestions, you had not noticed yet. And I am happy that I have succeeded, as you have paid more attention to 21.f5 than you did initially...

Looks like I misinterpretted your last post a bit.  Sorry about that – sometimes I can get carried away in my enthusiasm.  I hope you understand that I was just trying to engage you in discussion – not to tear down your suggestions of otherwise put you on the spot.   

BTW, you are correct about having steered my thoughts toward 21.f5.  Prior to your post, I'd practically decided that 21.Rh6 was the only move really worth considering.  Thanks for this.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10779
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #500 - 01/30/07 at 20:41:19
Post Tools
Quote:
With regards to MNb's post: 
Have you looked at 27...Qxd6 28.Rxd6 Rf1+ 29.Kd2 Kg8 30.Rxa6 Rf2+ with an active rook and 24...Kxf8 25.Qe4 Bg5+ 26.Kb1 Kg8 ?
The keyword for Black's play is activity.

Instead of (20...Rad8 21.Qd4 Qc6 22.Bxe6+ Qxe6 23.Nxd5 fxe5) 24.Rxf8+ Rxf8 25.Nxe7+ Qxe7, taking the bishop on e7 first, forces the position after the 25th move. That is, after 24.Nxe7+ Qxe7 25.Rxf8+ then black has to play Rxf8, ending up at the same position. 

And thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think 27...Qxd6 28.Rxd6 Rf1+ 29.Kd2 Kg8 30.Rxa6 Rf2+ quite works. For instance, after 31.Kd3 Rxg2 32.Rb6 Kf7 33.Rb5 Kf6 34.a4 Rxh2 35.a5 white's three connected passed pawns and better piece coordination look winning to me.


Ah yes, I had thought further. But 24.Nxe7+ then is more precise than 24.Rxf8+. After 31.Kd3 I had e4+ 32.Kxe4 Rxb2 in mind. As I am not quite an expert in rooks endgames, it is far from me to judge this position, but Black's rook looks annoyingly active to me.
Maybe this is something for the endgame section?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10779
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #499 - 01/30/07 at 20:35:15
Post Tools
Dear Ostap,

let me make one thing clear once and for all. The lines I produce are more or less wild guesses. I do not pretend to have found optimal play for both sides at all; for something like that I by far do not spend enough time. I am a pure kibitzer: what about this, what about that?
1. When I asked, have you looked at 23...Bf8, I meant after every random White move you might have had in mind.
2. If you don't know the logic behind moves like 23.Nd2 and 23.g5, how do you expect me to know the logic behind the moves I propose? I intuitively just feel, that White must strive for f4-f5 - so I might be dead wrong, as my intuition quite often fails me.
So I simply can't answer your questions. I only hope to steer your thoughts in a path worth trodding and bring up a few suggestions, you had not noticed yet. And I am happy that I have succeeded, as you have paid more attention to 21.f5 than you did initially.  Wink

And I simply never have looked at 21.Rh6 Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7 23.Re1 a5. May I bring into your attention, that it was you, who initially thought so high of f4-f5-f6, forcing the black queen to h8?

It is the same with 21.f5 Ndxe5. It is very possible, that 22.Re1 is stronger than 22.Qf4.
In full conscience that you see and analyse at least ten times as much as me,

MNb
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #498 - 01/30/07 at 16:55:28
Post Tools
I've been looking at 21.f5 some more and it looks like:
  • 21...Ncxe5 is indeed strongly answered by 22.Re1
  • After 21...Ndxe5, either 22.Qf4 (suggested above by MNb) or 22.Re1 (which I am currently investigating) look like strong replies.

So 21.f5 is looking like quite an attractive move after all.  Although I still haven't found any reason not to like 21.Rh6, which also looks quite promising (even after 21...Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7), pushing the f-pawn (f for forward!) is a more appealing, straightforward plan.  If 21.f5 holds up to further scrutiny, it may well replace 21.Rh6 as my first choice.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
whiteatak shredder
Junior Member
**
Offline


French Hedgehog

Posts: 72
Joined: 08/12/06
Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #497 - 01/30/07 at 05:42:34
Post Tools
With regards to MNb's post: 
Have you looked at 27...Qxd6 28.Rxd6 Rf1+ 29.Kd2 Kg8 30.Rxa6 Rf2+ with an active rook and 24...Kxf8 25.Qe4 Bg5+ 26.Kb1 Kg8 ?
The keyword for Black's play is activity.

Instead of (20...Rad8 21.Qd4 Qc6 22.Bxe6+ Qxe6 23.Nxd5 fxe5) 24.Rxf8+ Rxf8 25.Nxe7+ Qxe7, taking the bishop on e7 first, forces the position after the 25th move. That is, after 24.Nxe7+ Qxe7 25.Rxf8+ then black has to play Rxf8, ending up at the same position. 

And thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think 27...Qxd6 28.Rxd6 Rf1+ 29.Kd2 Kg8 30.Rxa6 Rf2+ quite works. For instance, after 31.Kd3 Rxg2 32.Rb6 Kf7 33.Rb5 Kf6 34.a4 Rxh2 35.a5 white's three connected passed pawns and better piece coordination look winning to me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 40
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo