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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 344293 times)
OstapBender
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #91 - 07/22/06 at 01:51:59
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/21/06 at 18:34:21:
I find it fascinating that old books say that a move is questionable, such as 10...Qe7 and then we see someone like Bareev play it without any noticeable improvement in mind.  I'd like to see Khalifman's analysis of 10...Qe7 to see what justification he gives for it.

If this refers to Svidler-Bareev, Elista 1997 then 10...Qe7 comes out looking pretty unimpressive.  I think this was a blitz game, however (can someone confirm?).  If so, maybe not such an important game for theoretical assessment of 10...Qe7.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #90 - 07/21/06 at 18:34:21
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Willempie,

I'm sure 10....Nb6 is just bad.  White has the obvious 11.Nxc6 Bxe3 12.Nxd8 Bxd2+ 13.Rxd2 Rxd8 and White's pieces are much better placed than Black's.  White probably has even better, possibly with 11.g4.   I'd have to check it more thoroughly, but I suspect there are excellent reasons why I haven't seen it recommended in any of the literature.

Bad, 

Thanks for adding the supplemental lines! (In the 10...Qa5 lines, I typed 12.Bxe3 when I meant 12.Qxe3 of course.  But I agree with your assessment.)

MarinFan, 

I find it fascinating that old books say that a move is questionable, such as 10...Qe7 and then we see someone like Bareev play it without any noticeable improvement in mind.  I'd like to see Khalifman's analysis of 10...Qe7 to see what justification he gives for it.
  
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Sadman
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #89 - 07/21/06 at 15:22:56
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Ostap Bender. I'm sorry if this is non-topic but wasn't Ostap Bender the guy who was supposedly chased out of some Russian town after giving a simultaneous exhibition starting all games with 1.e4 and losing every single game?  Smiley
  
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Keano
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #88 - 07/21/06 at 14:06:15
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Interesting - thanks for info Mr. Pritt. I was a bit shocked to learn Khalifman had rcommended this Nb3 line, but I remember years ago when I studied this line as Black it was an annoying move I didnt fancy playing against, not sure why it never really caught on - apart from Dutch GM Nijboer who is a bit of a specialist in it.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #87 - 07/21/06 at 13:26:20
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No, Anand-Morozevich is not in Khalifman's book. His main variation is 10)...a6 11)Nb3 Bb4 12)Bd3 b5 13)g4 with a lot of exciting possibillities that seem favourable to white, but he also adds that the variation is developing on a daily basis and that there's a lot of blank spots left.
Khalifman seems to regard 10)...Qe7 as a more solid alternative after which white is only slightly better. Apart from 10)...N/Bxd4 there are no serious alternatives. He gives 
-10)...Rb8 11)Nb3 and it is not clear what advantages 10)...Rb8 would have over 10)...a6;
-10)...Bb4 11)a3 Bc5 but it is hard to imagine that this loss of time is any good;
-10)...Qa5 11)Nb3 Bxe3 12)Qxe3 is just bad.
  
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Keano
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #86 - 07/21/06 at 10:33:32
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I have a feeling Anand v Morovevich was played after the book was sent to print (could be wrong -somebody please confirm or correct!) - but I suspect Anand had an original draft of the analysis since he decided to vary from his standard stuff and play Nb3 in San Luis.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #85 - 07/21/06 at 10:08:32
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Hello,

Bareev has played 10...Qe7, with one of the ideas to play, a quick f6, but it didn't work out too well in practise. It is maybe more appriopriate against 10 g3. Think would be educational to look at the direct 10... a6, before looking at more subtle stuff. 
Does  Khalifman look at Anand v Morovevich FIDE Wch, have not got those series of books yet.

Bye John S
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #84 - 07/21/06 at 08:27:47
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I'd prefer 10..Bb4 to correct the black mistake on move 3 Grin

Seriously I would give a thought to what to do with Nd7, it is completely in the way atm, but eg 10..Nb6 may be tempting fate on the kingside. So maybe playing for a quick f6 is best.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #83 - 07/21/06 at 08:00:29
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well 10...a6 is the established move, but just thinking ahead if Black were afraid of Khalifmans 11.Nb3 then 10...Bxd4 might be interesting intending 11.Bxd4 a6 12.Bf2 b5 with one of those positions where Blacks plan is ...b4, ..a5, ...Ba6  BUT I´m sure there is a good reason why this order is not played! To be safe I would stick with 10...a6
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #82 - 07/21/06 at 07:12:32
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I haven't done any data searches.  I was just looking at the position trying to come up with alternatives to the moves I listed.   

The only one I keep returning to is 10...Qa5?!  If 11.Nb3 Bxe3 12.Na5 Bd2+ 13.Rd2 Na5 14.g4 looks ok for White.

Also, 12.Bxe3 Qc7 accomplishes precious little for Black.  Does anyone know if there's a theoretical assessment for 10...Qa5?
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #81 - 07/21/06 at 03:48:18
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For what it's worth Watson recommends 10...a6 here, and doesn't discuss any alternatives.  Queenside expansion is logical and typical of many of the Steinitz lines (where ...a6 can come as early as the 7th move).

I'm interested to hear discussion of the alternatives and, since we are still in theory, I may venture some of my own opinions at this stage for Black's moves as well (no promises though, as my other game becomes infinitely more distracting when it is my turn to move!).
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #80 - 07/21/06 at 01:01:01
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Ostap, 

This will be fun!  We're going down theoretical lanes today.

I'm going to wait about 24 hours before responding to see what my allies have to say.

My main choices are: 

  • 10...Nxd4
  • 10...Bxd4
  • 10...a6
  • 10...Qe7
  • 10...Something else.  (Please explain what that may be!)


Again, thanks for your help!
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #79 - 07/20/06 at 23:10:16
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1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0



current position

So it's official - we're castled on opposite wings.
Now, the fun begins...
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #78 - 07/20/06 at 13:33:41
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Haven't looked at this as much I expected to have by now (minor distractions elsewhere Roll Eyes http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151879306).  Before choosing, I wanted to post a few lines for comparison/discussion, etc.

Well, we're still in theory, and I think it's a choice between 10.g3 and 10.0-0-0, which MNb initially suggested several days ago.

10.0-0-0 seems to please everyone, while 10.g3 has gotten a rather lukewarm reception.  Add to this, the well-known tendencies of one of my chief allies (a diehard Spielmann supporter with a serious Iljin-Zjenevsky addiction), my own love of attacking play (don't really understand anything else - if we reach an level endgame you guys are going to have to carry me! Roll Eyes), then opposite wing castling seems a pretty natural choice (what was that other move again? Undecided).

So, it will be 10.0-0-0 unless someone here strenuously advocates 10.g3 (er, not you Smyslov_Fan Tongue).  I will give anyone who wishes a bit of time to voice their opinion on this, and will make my choice official this evening.
« Last Edit: 07/20/06 at 23:12:28 by OstapBender »  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #77 - 07/18/06 at 15:34:15
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I thought so, but these minor lines are usually quite insightfull for me as to why some moves are main lines.
I think that in these french structures you would want a knight on c5 as black if possible, so white should be able to counter Qb6 with Na4.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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