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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Saemisch Variation (Read 53990 times)
Markovich
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #13 - 07/03/08 at 13:22:02
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CheckMate wrote on 07/03/08 at 13:15:30:
unknown_master wrote on 03/09/07 at 12:01:06:
12. d5?! is refuted easily exd5! 13. cxd5 Bxd3 14. Qxd3 fxe4 15. Qxe4 Nd6 when Black is better. So White would have to start with 12. e5 but after d6 13. d5 leads nowhere because of  exd5 14. cxd5 Bxd3 15. Qxd3 dxe5


Dearing recommends 12 ... d6 13. dxe6 Qe7 in "Play The Nomzo-Indian" ISO 12 ... exd5 etc. Wander if Dearing didn't know about 12 ... exd5? Is this development younger than the book?



I've looked, and I think that White has a little less than nothing after 12...exd5!  So that is what I would play.
  

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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #12 - 07/03/08 at 13:21:03
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Oops! I meant 12 ... Na5 13.e5 d6 14. dxe6 Qe7 in the last post!
And it's Nimzo-Indian, not Nomzo-Indian.
  
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #11 - 07/03/08 at 13:15:30
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unknown_master wrote on 03/09/07 at 12:01:06:
12. d5?! is refuted easily exd5! 13. cxd5 Bxd3 14. Qxd3 fxe4 15. Qxe4 Nd6 when Black is better. So White would have to start with 12. e5 but after d6 13. d5 leads nowhere because of  exd5 14. cxd5 Bxd3 15. Qxd3 dxe5


Dearing recommends 12 ... d6 13. dxe6 Qe7 in "Play The Nomzo-Indian" ISO 12 ... exd5 etc. Wander if Dearing didn't know about 12 ... exd5? Is this development younger than the book?

  
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Markovich
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #10 - 03/11/08 at 15:32:54
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Markovich wrote on 03/11/07 at 14:19:48:
unknown_master wrote on 03/10/07 at 23:17:48:
It's always difficult to find the correct way if you're surprised at the board with a new move. But if the variation was that strong Milov surely would have tried it again.

Birarov,V (2518) - Joao,N (2515) [E29]
Veinger mem-A corr ICCF corr, 2002

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 0-0 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.Ne2 b6 9.e4 Ne8 10.0-0 Ba6 11.f4 f5 12.d5 exd5 13.cxd5 Bxd3 14.Qxd3 fxe4 15.Qxe4 Nd6 16.Qf3 Ne5 17.Qh3 Qf6 18.g4 Nec4 19.Qd3 Rae8 20.Ng3 Na5 21.g5 Qf7 22.Rb1 c4 23.Qf3 Nf5 24.Nxf5 Qxf5 25.Be3 Re4 26.Rbd1 Rfe8 27.Bd4 d6 28.Qg3 Nb3 29.Bf2 Re2 30.Rfe1 Qc2 31.Rxe2 Qxd1+ 32.Re1 Rxe1+ 33.Bxe1 Nc5 34.Qe3 Kf7 35.h4 Qxd5 36.Bf2 Qd3 0-1



Pitterson,J (2221) - Oms Pallise,J (2496) [E29]
Turin ol (Men) 37th Turin (10), 21.05.2006

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 c5 6.e3 Nc6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Ne2 b6 9.e4 Ne8 10.0-0 Ba6 11.f4 f5 12.d5 exd5 13.cxd5 Bxd3 14.Qxd3 fxe4 15.Qxe4 Nd6 16.Qd3 Na5 17.f5 Qf6 18.Ng3 Rae8 19.Ra2 Nb3 20.Bf4 c4 21.Qf3 Nxf5 22.Raf2 Nxg3 23.Qxg3 Qg6 24.Bd6 Rxf2 25.Qxf2 h6 26.Be7 Kh7 27.d6 Nc5 28.Qd4 Qe4 29.Qf2 Qe6 30.Re1 Qd5 31.Qe2 Nd3 32.Qe4+ Qxe4 33.Rxe4 b5 34.Kf1 Kg6 35.g4 h5 36.gxh5+ Kxh5 37.h4 Kg6 38.Rg4+ Kf7 39.Re4 a6 40.Ke2 Nc5 41.Rf4+ Kg8 42.Ke3 Rc8 43.Rf5 g6 44.Rg5 Kf7 45.h5 gxh5 46.Rxh5 Ke6 47.Kf4 Nd3+ 48.Ke4 Rc5 49.Rh6+ Kf7 50.Rf6+ Kg7 51.Rf8 Rh5 52.Ra8 Nc5+ 53.Kd4 Ne6+ 54.Ke3 Rh3+ 55.Kd2 Nc5 56.Ra7 Kf7 57.Rc7 Ne4+ 58.Ke1 Ke6 59.Ra7 Nxc3 60.Rxa6 Nb1 61.a4 b4 62.Rb6 Rh1+ 63.Kf2 b3 64.a5 Nc3 65.Bf8 Nd5 66.Rb5 b2 0-1

I'll leave it to you to find an improvement over these games. I think this is exactly the kind of position Black is aiming for in the Sämisch and I find it hard to imagine that White should not be worse here.


Thanks for that info.


Now that this has come up again, I must agree that "unknown master" was right, and I was wrong, about this particular line.

But I still think that in general, White's prospects in the Saemisch are better than commonly believed.  The ideas pointed to by Lee Roth are interesting, and White can also try 13.Ng3 g6 and then swapping, in some order, on f5 and c5.
  

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LeeRoth
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #9 - 03/08/08 at 03:33:48
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The line in question is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 O-O 6.e3 c5 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.Ne2 b6 9.e4 Ne8 10.O-O Ba6 11.f4 f5   In CBM 122, Moskalenko examines the idea discussed by Markovich and Unknown Master -- playing for d5-d6 and e5, cramping the Black position at the cost of the c4 pawn.   

Moskalenko agrees that 12.d5 is imprecise and argues that White should start with 12.e5, the main idea being 12...Na5!? 13.d5.  If instead 12..d6, as proposed by Unkown Master, then 13.d5?! doesn't work -- see Carlsen-Aronian, Elista 2007 -- but White has the new tries 13.g4!? and 13.Qa4.

position after 12..d6
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


Thoughts?
 
  
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #8 - 03/19/07 at 13:13:29
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People interested in this line might want to look at Radjabov-Anand from Melody Amber on Sunday. I'm no expert, but I think Anand simply ignored the received wisdom that Capablanca's 9...Ne8 is important so as to stop the Bg5 pin, and won anyway, although whether he was always doing well I hesitate to say.
  
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #7 - 03/11/07 at 14:19:48
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unknown_master wrote on 03/10/07 at 23:17:48:
It's always difficult to find the correct way if you're surprised at the board with a new move. But if the variation was that strong Milov surely would have tried it again.

Birarov,V (2518) - Joao,N (2515) [E29]
Veinger mem-A corr ICCF corr, 2002

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 0-0 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.Ne2 b6 9.e4 Ne8 10.0-0 Ba6 11.f4 f5 12.d5 exd5 13.cxd5 Bxd3 14.Qxd3 fxe4 15.Qxe4 Nd6 16.Qf3 Ne5 17.Qh3 Qf6 18.g4 Nec4 19.Qd3 Rae8 20.Ng3 Na5 21.g5 Qf7 22.Rb1 c4 23.Qf3 Nf5 24.Nxf5 Qxf5 25.Be3 Re4 26.Rbd1 Rfe8 27.Bd4 d6 28.Qg3 Nb3 29.Bf2 Re2 30.Rfe1 Qc2 31.Rxe2 Qxd1+ 32.Re1 Rxe1+ 33.Bxe1 Nc5 34.Qe3 Kf7 35.h4 Qxd5 36.Bf2 Qd3 0-1



Pitterson,J (2221) - Oms Pallise,J (2496) [E29]
Turin ol (Men) 37th Turin (10), 21.05.2006

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 c5 6.e3 Nc6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Ne2 b6 9.e4 Ne8 10.0-0 Ba6 11.f4 f5 12.d5 exd5 13.cxd5 Bxd3 14.Qxd3 fxe4 15.Qxe4 Nd6 16.Qd3 Na5 17.f5 Qf6 18.Ng3 Rae8 19.Ra2 Nb3 20.Bf4 c4 21.Qf3 Nxf5 22.Raf2 Nxg3 23.Qxg3 Qg6 24.Bd6 Rxf2 25.Qxf2 h6 26.Be7 Kh7 27.d6 Nc5 28.Qd4 Qe4 29.Qf2 Qe6 30.Re1 Qd5 31.Qe2 Nd3 32.Qe4+ Qxe4 33.Rxe4 b5 34.Kf1 Kg6 35.g4 h5 36.gxh5+ Kxh5 37.h4 Kg6 38.Rg4+ Kf7 39.Re4 a6 40.Ke2 Nc5 41.Rf4+ Kg8 42.Ke3 Rc8 43.Rf5 g6 44.Rg5 Kf7 45.h5 gxh5 46.Rxh5 Ke6 47.Kf4 Nd3+ 48.Ke4 Rc5 49.Rh6+ Kf7 50.Rf6+ Kg7 51.Rf8 Rh5 52.Ra8 Nc5+ 53.Kd4 Ne6+ 54.Ke3 Rh3+ 55.Kd2 Nc5 56.Ra7 Kf7 57.Rc7 Ne4+ 58.Ke1 Ke6 59.Ra7 Nxc3 60.Rxa6 Nb1 61.a4 b4 62.Rb6 Rh1+ 63.Kf2 b3 64.a5 Nc3 65.Bf8 Nd5 66.Rb5 b2 0-1

I'll leave it to you to find an improvement over these games. I think this is exactly the kind of position Black is aiming for in the Sämisch and I find it hard to imagine that White should not be worse here.


Thanks for that info.
  

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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #6 - 03/10/07 at 23:17:48
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It's always difficult to find the correct way if you're surprised at the board with a new move. But if the variation was that strong Milov surely would have tried it again.

Birarov,V (2518) - Joao,N (2515) [E29]
Veinger mem-A corr ICCF corr, 2002

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 0-0 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.Ne2 b6 9.e4 Ne8 10.0-0 Ba6 11.f4 f5 12.d5 exd5 13.cxd5 Bxd3 14.Qxd3 fxe4 15.Qxe4 Nd6 16.Qf3 Ne5 17.Qh3 Qf6 18.g4 Nec4 19.Qd3 Rae8 20.Ng3 Na5 21.g5 Qf7 22.Rb1 c4 23.Qf3 Nf5 24.Nxf5 Qxf5 25.Be3 Re4 26.Rbd1 Rfe8 27.Bd4 d6 28.Qg3 Nb3 29.Bf2 Re2 30.Rfe1 Qc2 31.Rxe2 Qxd1+ 32.Re1 Rxe1+ 33.Bxe1 Nc5 34.Qe3 Kf7 35.h4 Qxd5 36.Bf2 Qd3 0-1



Pitterson,J (2221) - Oms Pallise,J (2496) [E29]
Turin ol (Men) 37th Turin (10), 21.05.2006

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 c5 6.e3 Nc6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Ne2 b6 9.e4 Ne8 10.0-0 Ba6 11.f4 f5 12.d5 exd5 13.cxd5 Bxd3 14.Qxd3 fxe4 15.Qxe4 Nd6 16.Qd3 Na5 17.f5 Qf6 18.Ng3 Rae8 19.Ra2 Nb3 20.Bf4 c4 21.Qf3 Nxf5 22.Raf2 Nxg3 23.Qxg3 Qg6 24.Bd6 Rxf2 25.Qxf2 h6 26.Be7 Kh7 27.d6 Nc5 28.Qd4 Qe4 29.Qf2 Qe6 30.Re1 Qd5 31.Qe2 Nd3 32.Qe4+ Qxe4 33.Rxe4 b5 34.Kf1 Kg6 35.g4 h5 36.gxh5+ Kxh5 37.h4 Kg6 38.Rg4+ Kf7 39.Re4 a6 40.Ke2 Nc5 41.Rf4+ Kg8 42.Ke3 Rc8 43.Rf5 g6 44.Rg5 Kf7 45.h5 gxh5 46.Rxh5 Ke6 47.Kf4 Nd3+ 48.Ke4 Rc5 49.Rh6+ Kf7 50.Rf6+ Kg7 51.Rf8 Rh5 52.Ra8 Nc5+ 53.Kd4 Ne6+ 54.Ke3 Rh3+ 55.Kd2 Nc5 56.Ra7 Kf7 57.Rc7 Ne4+ 58.Ke1 Ke6 59.Ra7 Nxc3 60.Rxa6 Nb1 61.a4 b4 62.Rb6 Rh1+ 63.Kf2 b3 64.a5 Nc3 65.Bf8 Nd5 66.Rb5 b2 0-1

I'll leave it to you to find an improvement over these games. I think this is exactly the kind of position Black is aiming for in the Sämisch and I find it hard to imagine that White should not be worse here.
  
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #5 - 03/10/07 at 15:18:59
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unknown_master wrote on 03/09/07 at 12:01:06:
Jussupow,A (2645) - Karpov,A (2725) [E29]
Linares 11th Linares (11), 02.1993

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 0-0 8.Ne2 b6 9.e4 Ne8 10.0-0 Ba6 11.f4 f5 12.Ng3 g6 13.Be3 cxd4 14.cxd4 d5 15.cxd5 Bxd3 16.Qxd3 fxe4 17.Qxe4 Qxd5 18.Qxd5 exd5 19.Rac1 Rc8 20.f5 Nd6 21.fxg6 hxg6 22.Rxf8+ Kxf8 23.h4 Nc4 24.Bg5 Nxd4 25.h5 gxh5 26.Rf1+ Ke8 27.Nxh5 Nxa3 28.Ng7+ Kd7 29.Rf7+ Kc6 30.Rxa7 Nac2 31.Bf6 b5 32.g4 b4 33.Ra2 b3 34.Rb2 Kc5 35.Nf5 Rg8 36.Nxd4 Rxg4+ 37.Kf2 Nxd4 38.Bxd4+ Kxd4 39.Rxb3 Re4 40.Ra3 Re8 0-1

12. d5?! is refuted easily exd5! 13. cxd5 Bxd3 14. Qxd3 fxe4 15. Qxe4 Nd6 when Black is better. So White would have to start with 12. e5 but after d6 13. d5 leads nowhere because of  exd5 14. cxd5 Bxd3 15. Qxd3 dxe5


That's far from a refutation, it seems to me.  Though I agree that Black's game seems easy enough after 15...Nd6, I don't think he is better.  Still, it's curious that J. Polgar didn't play this way against Milov at the FIDE W.Ch. in Moscow, 2001; or Gyimesi against Cebalo, Croatia 2002.
  

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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #4 - 03/09/07 at 12:01:06
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Jussupow,A (2645) - Karpov,A (2725) [E29]
Linares 11th Linares (11), 02.1993

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 c5 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 0-0 8.Ne2 b6 9.e4 Ne8 10.0-0 Ba6 11.f4 f5 12.Ng3 g6 13.Be3 cxd4 14.cxd4 d5 15.cxd5 Bxd3 16.Qxd3 fxe4 17.Qxe4 Qxd5 18.Qxd5 exd5 19.Rac1 Rc8 20.f5 Nd6 21.fxg6 hxg6 22.Rxf8+ Kxf8 23.h4 Nc4 24.Bg5 Nxd4 25.h5 gxh5 26.Rf1+ Ke8 27.Nxh5 Nxa3 28.Ng7+ Kd7 29.Rf7+ Kc6 30.Rxa7 Nac2 31.Bf6 b5 32.g4 b4 33.Ra2 b3 34.Rb2 Kc5 35.Nf5 Rg8 36.Nxd4 Rxg4+ 37.Kf2 Nxd4 38.Bxd4+ Kxd4 39.Rxb3 Re4 40.Ra3 Re8 0-1

12. d5?! is refuted easily exd5! 13. cxd5 Bxd3 14. Qxd3 fxe4 15. Qxe4 Nd6 when Black is better. So White would have to start with 12. e5 but after d6 13. d5 leads nowhere because of  exd5 14. cxd5 Bxd3 15. Qxd3 dxe5
  
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #3 - 02/01/07 at 20:56:51
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MNb wrote on 02/01/07 at 20:38:25:
@ Markovich: Isn't Black at least OK after 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 c5 6.e3 (6.f3 d5 is the 4.f3 system) Nc6 or b6 ? There have been some Jussupow-Karpov games in the past.

@Martin C: Euwe-Colle, Amsterdam 1928, went 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 0-0 6.Qc2 d5. I have also found games by Yanofsky, Lilienthal and Pachman - not exactly nobody. But they all only played it once. I suppose one idea is to play Bg5.


Well, a lot of people would say that Black is more than O.K. in several lines against 4. a3.  But in practice life is not always so easy.  If memory serves, the latest idea for White is to deviate from Yusupov-Kasparov (after  5...c5  6. e3 Nc6  7. Bd3 0-0  8. Ne2 b6  9. e4 Ne8  10. 0-0 Ba6  11. f4 f5 -- I hope I have all that right) with  12. d5 Na5  13. e5, followed soon by d6.  White lets go of his c-pawn but makes it difficult for Black to coordinate his pieces.  This seems like a promising idea.  In some lines I looked at, White invades Black's queenside.  That's a switch, for the Saemisch.

In many lines of the Saemisch, the c-pawn simply has to go.  Once the doubled c-pawns are on the board, the c4 pawn is pretty worthless anyway, its main purpose being to exchange itself if Black tries ...d5. 

As for Martin's question, the queen on c2 is not very useful in these Saemisch positions.  White, already behind in development, needs every tempo he can get to mobilize his big center before Black blockades him all to blazes (as Karpov did to Yusupov).
  

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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #2 - 02/01/07 at 20:38:25
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@ Markovich: Isn't Black at least OK after 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 c5 6.e3 (6.f3 d5 is the 4.f3 system) Nc6 or b6 ? There have been some Jussupow-Karpov games in the past.

@Martin C: Euwe-Colle, Amsterdam 1928, went 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 0-0 6.Qc2 d5. I have also found games by Yanofsky, Lilienthal and Pachman - not exactly nobody. But they all only played it once. I suppose one idea is to play Bg5.
  

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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #1 - 02/01/07 at 17:40:47
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Another related question. Is there any concrete reason that after 4 Qc2 d5 5 a3 BxN+ no one plays 6 PxB?

Ok black can win c4 with 6 ..dc but 7 e4 b5 8 a4 c6 seems to offer some compensation. So maybe 6.. c5 7 e3 etc is safest - white wouldn't I think normally play Qc2 this early if at all. Still it's maybe not enough to ruin his position?!

I'd guess this is perhaps only worth playing as a surprise to get black into a pawn structure he doesn't normally play (since the queen is slightly misplaced on c2).

Of course it really would also be a painfully unthematic move to play Smiley
  
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Saemisch Variation
02/01/07 at 14:27:42
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Here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1170253141 ;

is a discussion that belongs where it is, but which touches closely upon the Saemisch Variation, which I think may be a better try for White than its current popularity would indicate.
  

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