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Poll closed Question: Who was the best challenger for the world title?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Bronstein    
  16 (41.0%)
Korchnoi    
  15 (38.5%)
Bogolyubov    
  1 (2.6%)
Tarrasch    
  1 (2.6%)
Janowski    
  0 (0.0%)
Chigorin    
  0 (0.0%)
Marshall    
  1 (2.6%)
Topalov    
  3 (7.7%)
Anand    
  1 (2.6%)
Zukertort, Gunsberg, Schlechter, Leko or Short    
  1 (2.6%)




Total votes: 39
« Last Modified by: thibdb13 on: 02/13/07 at 13:15:18 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Who was the best challenger for the world title? (Read 15189 times)
thibdb13
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #27 - 02/20/07 at 07:58:44
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I found the answer on Wikipedia (for so far it can be considered as credible): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiba_Rubinstein
Shortly: At the beginning, Rubinstein was not able not raise enough money and when he found the money, the match was scheduled for october 1914 but WW1 war already there...
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #26 - 02/19/07 at 16:29:07
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It is not right that negotiations for a match were at an advanced stage when the general international difficulties of 1914-1918 prevented it from taking place?
  
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thibdb13
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #25 - 02/19/07 at 16:22:08
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Keano wrote on 02/19/07 at 14:43:37:
Well I would say the answer to this question should be Rubinstein - except Lasker was smart enough not to give him a match when he was at his peak. In pure chess terms - technique, creativity in openings and endgames, artistry, it has got to be Rubinstein.

Just for my information: was Lasker afraid of Rubinstein or could Rubinstein not offer enough money for organizing the match (or was it both?)
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Keano
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #24 - 02/19/07 at 14:43:37
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Well I would say the answer to this question should be Rubinstein - except Lasker was smart enough not to give him a match when he was at his peak. In pure chess terms - technique, creativity in openings and endgames, artistry, it has got to be Rubinstein.
  
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thibdb13
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #23 - 02/18/07 at 11:45:20
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A similar poll was organized in July last year (it means before Bronstein died) and interessingly enough the poor Bronstein was nearly forgotten by the participant who gave the preference to Korchnoi, Pillsbury, Keres and Rubinstein!!  See:http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1153198747
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Prince-Nez
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #22 - 02/13/07 at 22:50:27
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IMJohnCox wrote on 02/13/07 at 22:17:38:
I suppose the terms of the question suggest to me that one is somehow to focus only on the match itself.   

 
I suppose perhaps I feel too that Bronstein was introducing something new into chess in a way Korchnoi wasn't. Korchnoi was an amazing fighter, terrific opportunist and fabulous endgame player (very like Lasker of course). But Bronstein had a magical quality to him - so clearly outgunned in the endgame, and yet able to survive against the great man because of his middlegame inventiveness. Looking at the 1948 games they could be from the 1930's easily. I don't think Bronstein's games could.

In the end though I suppose it's a silly game and people just vote for their favourites. I dare say Bronstein scores for his recent death and his literary charm.



Yes, I wasn't sure about the exact rules or parameters either.    Of course,  this question is unanswerable or a matter of opinion but, like historical counter-factuals, it is kind of fun to talk about. 

Regarding their respective styles, the same thought did occur to me after my last post: the fact that Bronstein was, if you will, an artist (and philosopher) and Korchnoi more (then and now) of a street fighter must play a role.  

I have always had an inkling that Lasker has always suffered in comparisons (and popularity) with Capablanca and Alekhine for a similar sort of reason(s).
« Last Edit: 02/13/07 at 23:52:00 by Prince-Nez »  

We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art. &&~ Henry James
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #21 - 02/13/07 at 22:17:38
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I suppose the terms of the question suggest to me that one is somehow to focus only on the match itself. And Bronstein drew at least, whereas Korchnoi when it really came down to the wire, had his moment and lost. Korchnoi was stuffed in Merano, and truly in Moscow never came that close against someone he really should have had too much for at that time. Botvinnik in 1951 against Karpov in 1978: I don't know. Had he been playing much recently? He had ups and downs of course when he spent more time on his work.

Perhaps too one feels that these timeless matches were a bit unfair on Karpov, whose stamina for them was always questionable, and that maybe that was why Korchnoi came so close in 1978?

I'm not disagreeing with you, to be honest. They're very similar stories; the outsider against the political darling of the time; the way they both came so close and lost with such extraordinary blunders.

I suppose perhaps I feel too that Bronstein was introducing something new into chess in a way Korchnoi wasn't. Korchnoi was an amazing fighter, terrific opportunist and fabulous endgame player (very like Lasker of course). But Bronstein had a magical quality to him - so clearly outgunned in the endgame, and yet able to survive against the great man because of his middlegame inventiveness. Looking at the 1948 games they could be from the 1930's easily. I don't think Bronstein's games could.

In the end though I suppose it's a silly game and people just vote for their favourites. I dare say Bronstein scores for his recent death and his literary charm.

I do think Schlechter deserves more of a shout, assuming we're speaking of the match itself. He played very bravely and well, although of course the game he did win was a little lucky. I've never heard this story of Andrew's about him being pressured to lose. What's that about, Andrew? There were stories he needed to win by two up, to be sure, but I thought those had been demolished.
  
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Prince-Nez
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #20 - 02/13/07 at 19:07:54
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Perhaps those voting for Bronstein (who is currently in the lead) can explain why.  So far I believe this from John Cox is all we have:

I think I would just go for Bronstein - longer match, Botvinnik so dominant in 1948 and then challenged at the height of his powers, suspicion that Bronstein was pressured into not winning, etc.

Ok, that is all well and good but is Bronstein tying one match worth more then Korchnoi in 74, 78 and 81?  I know it is hard to quantify these things but, John (or anyone), was the Botvinnik of that time so much stronger then the Karpov of 78 and 81?  I don't think so.  

And throw out any reference to the World Championship, who was the greater tournament player, Bronstein or Korchnoi?  I stand to be shown wrong and a fool, but I think it was Korchnoi.  

So why the great David over the greater Viktor?  Smiley
  

We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art. &&~ Henry James
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #19 - 02/13/07 at 18:46:14
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It was a tough choice between Korchnoi and Bronstein, but I chose Bronstein.  Both came so close...

On the other hand, I might have chosen Keres ahead of either of them had he been on the list (maybe Keres was never an official challenger, though?  That must be it).
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
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Prince-Nez
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #18 - 02/13/07 at 17:45:28
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An excellent post, John!   Smiley

When I was typing my first post, some of the specifics you listed didn't occur to me.  Particularly, the Pirc!! The bloody, blankin Pirc!!!  Grin Grin Angry Angry Cry

Yes, most unfortunate, indeed.   I'm not an expert but can we say that Korchnoi's WC experiences would have broken a lesser man?  

And, undoubtedly, there are many examples from other sports.  Let me mention another golf one: Do you recall one of the Masters Faldo won?  I forget which year it was but Scott Hoch (rhymes with choke  Grin) missed the mother of all short puts to win the tournament.  Faldo then went on to win in a playoff, I think.
  

We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art. &&~ Henry James
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #17 - 02/13/07 at 17:31:06
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Good points, Prince-Nez. What I had against Korchnoi, I suppose, was exactly that he had tried and failed so many times pre-1976. But perhaps you are right. He was the Topalov of his time, in a way – a great leap forward in strength once he gathered a dedicated team around him.

He really should have won in Baguio. Some of the points he lost were incredible. And then at the end he ignored one of my fundamental theories about sport: if you have come back to equalise after being a long way behind; this is exactly the moment your opponent will gather himself for his last fling. Now is the moment to act with maximum vigilance, and allow him to exhaust his last resources before going for the kill. 

It depends on the sport of course, but in general I am sure this is a principle worth bearing in mind. See the 1979 Cup Final.

In other words, don’t play the firkin’ Pirc. Draw again in the Nd2 Tarrasch, THEN go for it with White.

I’ve read since it was Keene’s idea to play the Pirc, but I wonder. They say Korchnoi was very chipper when he got back to 5-4, but when it became 5-5 he became very quiet. ‘The next game decides. It’s just like a lottery.’, he was quoted as saying. Did his nerves let him down – could he not bear for such a tense situation to drag on beyond one game?

I saw Korchnoi in Port Erin 2005, when they put on a rendition of the song from Chess which the challenger sings after the match for him (Chess is based on Baguio of course). He sat through it in the front row and seemed to enjoy it, but I would have given a penny for his thoughts. What must it be like to sit down at the board knowing you may be world champion when you get up, and never make it, and have to remember that moment all your life, never mind being reminded of it by amateur operatic societies performing in your honour?

I am reminded of Doug Sanders, who famously missed a three-foot putt to win the Open and lost the play-off the next day. Shortly before his death 30 years later he was asked whether the wound had healed. ‘Oh yes’, he replied. ‘These days I only think about it every 30 minutes or so.
  
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #16 - 02/13/07 at 17:06:52
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Korchnoi. Korchnoi. Korchnoi. 

Again, Viktor Korchnoi.  

He played two official WC matches and one de facto WC match against one of the most dominant champions ever and he nearly won two of them.    And throw in what he endured as a defector.    

He was a four-time Soviet champion and was a WC candidate 8 times.  Can we include his great longevity as well?  

I could go on.  Yet again, Viktor Korchnoi!   Wink
  

We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art. &&~ Henry James
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #15 - 02/13/07 at 16:43:48
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'One of the greatest ever' - well, it depends how many you admit to that category of course. But I think it's already clear he's destined to be a Keres or Rubinstein, maybe at best a Smyslov or Euwe, rather than a Karpov. Arguably he's been unfortunate in the times he's lived in - it's clear that he found the whole Kasparov breakaway and associated political turmoil deeply offputting, (and perhaps also the hoopla surrounding New York ’95 – it’s clear he found Kasparov’s behaviour there disillusioning) and has more or less made a decision not to worry too much about the whole world championship thang. That might be the same thing as you mention about the magic ingredient, or perhaps something slightly different. And naturally history will remember the consequences of that decision rather than the reasons, however understandable. It’d be interesting to see what approach he took to all that if he did win in Mexico.
  
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #14 - 02/13/07 at 16:29:31
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I am a fan of Anand, but in terms of juging him one of the greatest ever I think the jury is still out. He had the misfortune to be blown apart by Kasparov quite easily in his only chance, and as Kasparov points out there a strange personality quirk he has where he can suddenly play a disastrous game or 2 in a tournament, and it seems to not affect him in the way you would think it should. In short I think he is missing the magic ingredient, whatever it is - killer instinct, obsession, call it what you like. That said, he is still not over the hill yet!
  
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Re: Who was the best challenger for the world titl
Reply #13 - 02/13/07 at 15:31:50
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woofwoof wrote on 02/13/07 at 15:28:00:
Errrmmm...... Wasnt the 1st one Bots-Smyslov 1954??

but definitely Bronstein-Botvinnik & Smyslov-Botvinnik 1954 were better than Krams-Leko. Longer match, & many more decisive games.

Was there a match Krams-Leko? I must have slept through it.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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