(UTC)
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › 1. e4 e5 - Non-Spanish › 2 Knights › The current statut of the Traxler
(Moderators: trw, Smyslov_Fan, Jupp53)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The current statut of the Traxler (Read 48168 times)
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #21 - 03/31/07 at 14:37:11
Post Tools
From the YB 55 we learnt that the pseudo refutation of the Traxler was 5.Nf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 (Kf1! according to one of the article of YB63-68 is better for White but Dji say that in YB 70, Black has improved here)Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 and now 7..Qh4! 8.g3 Nxg3! 9.hxg3 Dd4+ 10.Kf3 d5! 11.Rh4 e4 12.Kg2 0-0 13.Nc3(the supposed refutation from YB55)13..dxc4 14.Qh5 Ne7! (The forgoten move that save Black, pointed out by a reader in YB56)
15.Nxe4 Bf5 16.Nfg5 h6 17.Nc3 Bg4 18.Nh3 Qf6 19.Rxg4 Qf1+ 20.Kh2 Rf2+ 21.Nxf2 Qxf2
with perpetual check. All this line comes from one of the article of YB63-68 available for free in the New in chess website in a pdf file. 

« Last Edit: 03/31/07 at 18:35:32 by ArKheiN »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1977
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #20 - 03/31/07 at 14:20:53
Post Tools
So, Dji, for those of us without YB70 could you (or anyone) give us a brief indication of what Black's best line(s) might be against 5 Nf7 (esp. with 7 Ke3) and 5 d4? I'm sure it's not "the end" but is Black currently suffering here?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dji
Full Member
***
Offline


Just a Spirit in this
material World

Posts: 169
Joined: 07/16/06
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #19 - 03/30/07 at 13:09:48
Post Tools
ArKheiN wrote on 03/30/07 at 08:14:51:
Nice, but in theYB 63-68 I think there are somes +/- évalutations even after 5.Bxf7 or 5.d4, from what you know about the subject, do you think White has any clear +/-, or Black is still ok with improvments, let's say +/= or unclear at worse?

yes but It's a vast debate! there 's some answers on this thread others somewhere on this site (look at 1.e4 e5 some months ago ) others on Pinski book Two knight defence..... but it's an entirely open debat and it's not the end.
But you know Play the Traxler it's something special: the Spirit against material   Ah Ah Ah
  
Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #18 - 03/30/07 at 08:14:51
Post Tools
Nice, but in theYB 63-68 I think there are somes +/- évalutations even after 5.Bxf7 or 5.d4, from what you know about the subject, do you think White has any clear +/-, or Black is still ok with improvments, let's say +/= or unclear at worse?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dji
Full Member
***
Offline


Just a Spirit in this
material World

Posts: 169
Joined: 07/16/06
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #17 - 03/30/07 at 07:55:58
Post Tools
ArKheiN wrote on 03/29/07 at 12:27:45:
Hello dji, and do you have the YB70? Does it respond to the 63-68? If yes does it gives improvments for Black? And give uncovered lines from the YB 63-68?



Yes there is many improvements in the line 5.Nxf7 .The title is 'It's hard to kill the Traxler gambit.'

For example the great refutation 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 is in fact favourable to black!!
  
Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #16 - 03/29/07 at 12:27:45
Post Tools
Hello dji, and do you have the YB70? Does it respond to the 63-68? If yes does it gives improvments for Black? And give uncovered lines from the YB 63-68?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dji
Full Member
***
Offline


Just a Spirit in this
material World

Posts: 169
Joined: 07/16/06
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #15 - 03/29/07 at 09:18:45
Post Tools
It's important to know that a lot of answers (in the line 5.Nxf7) to 63-68 yearbooks articles are bring in yearbook 70 .
  
Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #14 - 03/28/07 at 20:13:56
Post Tools
That is why I wrote this.

MNb wrote on 03/26/07 at 20:13:54:
This is Estrin's main line. He gives 11.h3 hxg5 12.hxg4 Qd7 13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Qd1 as White's best and leading to a safe extra pawn, but I am not so sure.


It has been long (pre silicon in fact) since I looked at the Traxler. Without any doubt with computer aid one can find many mistakes and wrong evaluations in old theory. Eg in your line 20...exd4 also looks pretty good.
So I don't know what the best lines are for White these days. As I don't plan to play it the first 10 years or so, I am too lazy to find out.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dji
Full Member
***
Offline


Just a Spirit in this
material World

Posts: 169
Joined: 07/16/06
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #13 - 03/28/07 at 18:15:30
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 03/28/07 at 02:11:54:
Estrin once again: 14...Qxg4 15.Qxg4 Nxg4 16.Bxg5+ Kd7 17.Be3.
Pachmann prefers 14...Nxg4 15.Bxg5+ Ke8 unclear.



A possible continuation is 14...Qxg4 15.Qxg4 Nxg4 16.Bxg5+ Kd7 17.Be3 Nxe3 18.fxe3 exd4 19.exd4 c5
20.Rxf8 Rxf8 21.d5 c4+ 22.Kh2 Rf1 and despite the pawn less black's perspective are excellent!
  
Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #12 - 03/28/07 at 02:11:54
Post Tools
Estrin once again: 14...Qxg4 15.Qxg4 Nxg4 16.Bxg5+ Kd7 17.Be3.
Pachmann prefers 14...Nxg4 15.Bxg5+ Ke8 unclear.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dji
Full Member
***
Offline


Just a Spirit in this
material World

Posts: 169
Joined: 07/16/06
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #11 - 03/27/07 at 08:41:06
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 03/26/07 at 20:13:54:
This is Estrin's main line. He gives 11.h3 hxg5 12.hxg4 Qd7 13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Qd1 as White's best and leading to a safe extra pawn, but I am not so sure.
Estrin does not like 8.d3?! either because of Brunnenberg-Niesche, corr 1963.




But 14.- Qd7xg4 win back the pawn, isn't it?

Treference game's of Pinski is Shabolov- Ivanov
9.Qe1 h6 10.d4 Bb6 11.h3. hxg5 12.hxg4 Qd7 13.Na3 leading to a position very unclear after 21 moves
  
Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #10 - 03/26/07 at 20:13:54
Post Tools
This is Estrin's main line. He gives 11.h3 hxg5 12.hxg4 Qd7 13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Qd1 as White's best and leading to a safe extra pawn, but I am not so sure.
Estrin does not like 8.d3?! either because of Brunnenberg-Niesche, corr 1963.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dji
Full Member
***
Offline


Just a Spirit in this
material World

Posts: 169
Joined: 07/16/06
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #9 - 03/26/07 at 13:11:43
Post Tools
I and Pinski prefer 6.Bd5 Rf8 (instead of 6...d6) 7.0-0 (7.d4 Nd4 8.c3 Ne6 and no problemo!) d6
8.c3 (8.d3?! Pinski) Bg4 9.Qe1 (9.Qb3!? Bb6!Pinski) h6 10.d4 Bb6! Pinski
  
Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #8 - 03/26/07 at 06:03:55
Post Tools
Thx Mnb,

I am not so sure about the pawnsac 7.d4,Bxd4
(1.e4.e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bc4,Nf6 4.Ng5,Bc5 5.Bxf7+,Ke7 6.Bd5,d6 7.d4,Bxd4)


r1bq3r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/3Bp1N1/3bP3/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQ -

It seems to me that after 

8. c3, Bb6
9.Nf7,Qf8
10.Bg5,Rg8     Again 10.Nxh8 is not to be recommended: 10....Nxd5
11.Qh5           White's advantage seems not so clear to me

11......, h6           Natural
12.Bxf+,gxf         And now neither 13.Nxh6,Rg5 nor 13.0-0,Bg4 look very appealing.

Instead white might choose to continue
8.Nf3!?, Bb6 9.Bg5,Qe8 10.Nh4 (unclear) as in Sergeev (2506)-Simacek (2402);Olomouc 2001
----------------------------
All in all I still think 7.c3 is best. This move was GM-tested in
Karpov-Beljavski 1983 [a game not included in Estrins monograph  Wink]

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #7 - 03/25/07 at 20:15:04
Post Tools
Both GM's clearly haven't read Estrin's 1978 booklet on the Traxler. It is all in there and even a little more.
I also might add Lepesjkin's 7.d4!? Bxd4 8.c3 Bb6 9.Nf7 Qf8 10.Bg5 Rg8 11.Qh5 "and White's advantage is beyond doubt."
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge