(UTC)
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › French › Tarrasch › C07-C09: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
(Moderators: proustiskeen, Smyslov_Fan)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C07-C09: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3 (Read 10085 times)
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1008
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: C07-C09: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #19 - 12/18/24 at 13:14:33
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 12/18/24 at 07:21:02:
In my database there are 48 games with White scroing 53%.

Thanks for letting me know! That is encouraging.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10779
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: C07-C09: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #18 - 12/18/24 at 07:21:02
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 12/17/24 at 23:29:46:
I only found 10 games.

Then you don't have corr games. In my database there are 48 games with White scroing 53%.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1008
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: C07-C09: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #17 - 12/17/24 at 23:29:46
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 12/17/24 at 17:18:41:
I considered this combined with 3...c5 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bb5+ Bd7.

I'm considering that also. 

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Ngf3 Nf6 6. Bb5 Bd7 7. Bd7 Qd7 8.O-O cd4. This is shown in the first diagram of post 15. 

I only found 10 games. It led to a draw in two computer games. White won all the human games! However, I don't think that properly reflects the strength of the line. I went over all games. While the play seems so natural that one might just want to wing it, there are some pitfalls.

In two games, Black played ...Be7-c5 before developing his knight with ...Nc6. There was no overriding reason to move the same piece twice so early in the game. Two of the games featured Ne5 Qc8. While not bad, Miedema's suggestion Ne5 Qc7 is probably better. Computer evaluations were always below .2 until an imprecise move was played. In one game, Black was doing fine until he made a mistake on the 32nd move.

As always, caveat emptor.
« Last Edit: 12/18/24 at 01:00:17 by FreeRepublic »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10779
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: C07-C09: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #16 - 12/17/24 at 17:18:41
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 12/17/24 at 16:12:19:
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. e5 leads to the universal system. Someone wishing to avoid it should prefer 4...Nc6 or 4...cxd4.

Or 4...a6.
Before quitting the French I considered this combined with 3...c5 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bb5+ Bd7.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1008
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: C07-C09: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #15 - 12/17/24 at 16:12:19
Post Tools
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. e5 leads to the universal system. Someone wishing to avoid it should prefer 4...Nc6 or 4...cxd4.

5. ed5 Nd5 (post 14 below) is a sideline, as the  main move is 5... ed5. 5...Nd5 avoids a lot of theory. However, the knight recapture is not available if White had played 4ed5. 5...ed5 also provides an answer to 4. ed5 (1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. ed5 ed5 5. Ngf3 Nf6).

After 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. ed5 ed5 6. Bb5 Bd7 7. Bd7,  the main recapture is 7...Nbd7. Miedema also covers an alternative recapture 7...Qd7.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Black intends to play ...Nc6 at some point. I don't see any way for White to punish Black for his ambitious plan. For example after (1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. ed5 ed5 6. Bb5 Bd7 7. Bd7 Qd7) 8. O-O cd4 9. Ne5 Qc7 10. Re1 Be7 11. Ndf3 O-O 12. Nd4 Re8 13. Bf4 Qb6 14. Nb3 Nc6, with a reasonable game.
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1008
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: C07-C09: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #14 - 12/12/24 at 16:36:57
Post Tools
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. ed5 Nd5

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Black chooses to avoid an isolated queen pawn and to centralize his knight, rather than his queen, with the recapture. I have not seen this covered in theory, but it has been played by Korchnoi, Short and has been chosen several times recently by GM Bluebaum. Anyone familiar with this?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #13 - 06/11/07 at 02:25:59
Post Tools
dom, 

Thanks for sharing that openings repertoire section.  I hadn't noticed it before.  GM Davies prefers White after 3...Nf6.  I may start a new thread about it since it's one of my favorite positions to play as Black.  (I don't score as well with it as I would like though.)  It seems most of the old threads here are cold.

Cheers!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #12 - 05/18/07 at 09:15:31
Post Tools
About the "open main line" I use the given opportunity to mention here, adviced repertoire (for White/Black) given by (Andrew Martin/Nigel Davies) on www.chesspublishing.com.

Go to main page and click on 'Repertoire'...you'll access to http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/repert.htm

Now click on 'GM Nigel Davies repertoire' 

In "Endgame Openings" you'll read an advice for the line: 3...c5 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bb5+ Bd7 6.Qe2 Qe7 with advantage to White due isolated pawn.

This assesment might be object of a debate because if you look at games between > 2400 Elo players on www.chesslive.de you'll find only 14 games and results are good for Black (and many draws). Another point is no game for player=Davies with the queens exchange, only following game:

[Event "USA Queen corr"]
[Site "USA"]
[Date "1981.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Davies,Nigel"]
[Black "Pedersen,N Eric"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C09"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.exd5 exd5 5.Ngf3 Nc6 6.Bb5 Bd6 7.0-0 Nge7 8.Re1 0-0 9.dxc5 Bxc5 10.Nb3 Bd6 11.Nbd4 Bg4 12.Nxc6 bxc6 13.Bd3 Bf5 14.Bg5 Bxd3 15.Qxd3 Qc7 16.g3 h6 17.Bd2 c5 18.b3 Rac8 19.c4 d4 20.Nh4 Qd7 21.f4 f5 22.Re2 Kh7 23.Rae1 Rf6 24.Nf3 g6 25.b4 cxb4 26.Qxd4 Ng8 27.Bxb4 Qc7 28.Bxd6 Rxd6 29.Qc3 Qc5+ 30.Kg2 Ra6 31.Rd1 Nf6 32.Qe5 Qxe5 33.Nxe5 Re6 34.Rc2 Rc7 35.h3 g5 36.c5 gxf4 37.gxf4 Nh5 38.Rd7+ Rxd7 39.Nxd7 Rg6+ 40.Kf2 Rc6 41.Ke3 Ng7 42.Kd4 Rc7 43.c6 Kg6 44.Rg2+ Kf7 45.Ne5+ Kf8 46.Rg6 h5 47.Kd5 Ne8 48.Rg5 Ng7 49.Rxg7 Rxg7 50.Kd6 Ke8 51.c7 Rxc7 52.Kxc7 Ke7 53.a4 Ke6 54.Kc6 Ke7 55.a5 Ke6 56.a6 Ke7 
57.Nc4 Ke6 58.Nd6 Ke7 59.Nb5 Kf6 60.Nxa7 Ke6 61.Nb5 Kf6 62.a7 Kg7 63.a8=Q Kf7 64.Kd7   
1-0


  
“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frank
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1
Joined: 05/18/07
Re: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #11 - 05/18/07 at 03:39:27
Post Tools
Klick wrote on 05/08/07 at 07:36:25:

By the way, anyone know of any good books dedicated to the treatment of the d-pawn isolani?


Another interesting book on the IQP is the Chess Academy publication ISOLATED PAWN by GM Mikhalchishin et al. The book has 22 un-numbered SUBJECTS, not numbered chapters. It also lacks a player index. However, the 201 positions are the meat. Positions that are introduced are the best. Those that are not inherit the SUBJECT heading. I suspect the unintroduced positions are an artifact of classroom instruction. The last SUBJECT is titled "The isolated black d-pawn emerging from the Frech Defence." Check it out. /frank
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarinFan
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 447
Location: Leeds
Joined: 04/04/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #10 - 05/09/07 at 09:43:14
Post Tools
Hello,

I can second that "Winning pawn structures" is a very good book. It is still available as far as I know, but Baburin has requested people not to buy it, because he did not receive payment for the book after Batsford got into difficulties.

Bye John S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #9 - 05/08/07 at 12:44:40
Post Tools
Klick wrote on 05/08/07 at 07:36:25:
The white-squared bishop is way too important for white's attacking aspirations to allow an easy exchange. Try to provoke black into playing g7-g6 (with queen/bishop battery) and then switch it to the a2-g8 diagonal. Here it will help sacs on f7 and e6 become a real possibility.

By the way, anyone know of any good books dedicated to the treatment of the d-pawn isolani?


I have a good book : "Winning pawn structures" - Alexander Baburin - Batsford Ed. - 1998 - ISBN 0 7134 8009 2 ... but (as I already said for other Batsford books) maybe no more available. Better is to send an email to A.Baburin first (www.gmsquare.com or web site of Chess Today).

A.Baburin is a russian GM. He moved to Ireland some years ago. His book "Winning pawn structures" is excellent for the subject of isolated pawn games. Great value for players playing the queen gambit.

As given above, position after 11.a3 Re1 is a classical position for isolated pawn game in queen gambit, and now the plan of overfianchetto doesn't work: 12...a5 13.Bg5 Ba6? 14.Bxa6 Bxa6 15.Rc1 Ra8 16.Bxf6 Bxf6 17.d5! the main point of many variations as explained by Baburin in Introduction of the book.

After a5, you can sum White plan as follow: Black looses time to manage his plan and weakened greatly his queenside, White doesn't need anymore an attack on kingside because he has advantage of c-file and can exchange his isolated pawn.

The "normal" continuation for Black is 12...Bb7 13.Bc2 where Re8 transposes to Yusupov-Lobron,Nussloch 1996 game given by the book. I add it is better for White to wait Black plan before moving the c1-bishop (can go to e3,f4,g5 or h6).

More information, maybe on other chesspublishing forums
  
“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SJplayer
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 4
Joined: 05/03/07
Re: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #8 - 05/08/07 at 10:31:16
Post Tools
Thanks, for your answers. The idea with 5.c3 is hoping it would transpose into korchnois gambit after Nf6. I don't think this is the best line but there is play in all the lines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarinFan
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 447
Location: Leeds
Joined: 04/04/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #7 - 05/08/07 at 09:49:39
Post Tools
Hello,

The position arrive at with 11a3, occurs from a Nimzo-Indian line where white plays Bc4-Bd3, see Nadjorf v Polugaevsky 71 for example. Don't think it is theortically the most promising line for white, but plenty of play so a typical choice for Nadjorf. 
  For me 5c3 looks suspicous and usually something that a white player plays when mixed up 3.Nd2 Nf6 systems with 3Nd2 c5 ones, and 5Bb5 looks better. Interesting that Dom likes 5...a6 here,  because I like 5...pxp better, so something for me to check out. ( Also I can tranpose to that position from Taimanov lines).

Bye John 5
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #6 - 05/08/07 at 08:07:17
Post Tools
I think it is one of those occasions where it is ok to break the rules. Usually in the french and with the isolated pawn you'd want to keep the white bishop. However in this case I think the exchange will hurt black due to his weak white fields on the q-side. A move like Nb5 looks to me like it will give white the advantage, certainly when combined with moves as Qe2 and Bf4.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Klick
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 528
Joined: 01/31/03
Re: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3
Reply #5 - 05/08/07 at 07:36:25
Post Tools
The white-squared bishop is way too important for white's attacking aspirations to allow an easy exchange. Try to provoke black into playing g7-g6 (with queen/bishop battery) and then switch it to the a2-g8 diagonal. Here it will help sacs on f7 and e6 become a real possibility.

By the way, anyone know of any good books dedicated to the treatment of the d-pawn isolani?
  
There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge