Hello All:

Just got Tim Taylor's book and he has 18 pages on ...Bg4. He calls it "The Recipe" due to the fact that most authors give this as the way to handle the Bird.

Take care,

Gerry

Black_Widow wrote on 11/26/07 at 16:18:43:

1. f4 d6 2 e4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6, and now 4 Bc4 (4 d4 gives an austrian attack, as Yrjola gives), which gives interesting play, but theoretical almost virgin ground.

However:
1 f4 d6 2 e4 d5! is I think is here the critical situation. And I think Yrjola pulls conclusions in this line too qucikly, however it think it is totally unclear how to asses it. It looks like a reversed scandinavian, however it is a little simplistic to call the english a reversed sicilian, and then draw conclusions based on that. Trying to squeeze out with 3 d3, I do not think it is worse for white, but the advantage if any looks very small to me, however I would not be surprised, if some endgame specialists would obtain great results in such position.

The other critical line looks to me:
1. f4 d6 2. Nf3 Bg4 3. e3 e5 4. h3, also unclear to me how to assess it.

I never had in a game, or internet game 1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4. So I never gave it a real analysis. Although I agree it is an interesting idea for black.

Real analysis about this idea I do not know. Also what Yrjola gives in his book, I would not really like to call an analysis. Basicly it is a game played with this variation with an assessment of a decisive advantage for black.

The first moves are 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 (g6 is also a good option) 3.e4 e6 4.d3 g6 5.Be2 Bg7 6.0-0 Nge7. We are at move 20.

I usually met the Bird with 1...c5 hoping to transpose to some sort of closed Sicilian or GPA.
The problem with this is that most Bird players at club level stubbornly refuse to play e4. Instead they go for a queenside fianchetto with b3 Bb2 and e3. Frankly I have no idea how to play against that, although I feel blacks position should be rather fine. Any suggestions?

Btw: A friend of mine claimed that g6 Bg7 followed by an early Nh6 has worked wonders for him. Has anyone else tried that out?

LeeRoth wrote on 11/14/07 at 22:51:44:

With all respect to Richard Palliser and his nice book, but I am of the opinion, that analysis of the Kramnik game is thin. Especially for looking for improvements for white. For example 6 Nc3 c6 7 d3 and then a quick long castle for white. I do not see that black has enough compensation for his pawn, since white is then very decent. And there are more improvements which can be suggested. What Kramnik played was very tricky, giving black a lot of play for the pawn.

Black_Widow wrote on 11/13/07 at 20:03:33:


Palliser recommends this system in BUCO.   

Unless Danielson has a significant improvement, it looks pretty good for Black.

Gerry1970 wrote on 11/13/07 at 06:28:05:

I think the most solid way to meet 1.f4 is indeed with some sort of reversed Dutch, as has already been mentioned. Presumably the most flexible way to enter these lines is via 1.f4 Nf6 and then to follow up with ...g6, ...d5 etc. 

However, if White builds a Stonewall with f4 and d4, there is a particularly effective set-up at Black's disposal: play might go 1.f4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.d4 0-0 5.Bd3 d6 6.0-0 c5 7.c3 Nc6 8.Nbd2 (that's the way they use to play it) and now 8... e5! destroys White's centre. This line has scored incredibly well for Black, some 90% or so! It has served me well also against players who try to hide their intentions by playing 1.d4 Nf6 (my usual reply to 1.d4 anyway) 2.e3 g6 (again my usual reply, heading for a King's Indian or a Grünfeld) 3.Bd3 (by now I usually "know" what White is up to) 3...Bg7 4.f4 (see?) 4...0-0 5.Nf3 d6 6.0-0 c5 7.c3 Nc6 8.Nbd2 e5! 

Another interesting idea was mentioned in the recent volume 7 of NiC's SOS series: 1.f4 Nh6!? (see http://www.newinchess.com/Shop/Images/PDFs/SOS_07_Contents_p6-8.pdf Chapter 11) 
This may look odd but has some points:
a) If White tries to enter a system with 2.b3, 2...e5! is a good version of From's Gambit (1.f4 e5).
b) After an early e4 by White, Black plays ...d5, winning the f5 square for his knight.
c) If White plays more "solidly" with Nf3 etc., Black plays ...d5, ...g6, ...Bg7 etc., adopting a scheme often used by White against the Dutch with Nh3.

You may also have a look at  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird's_Opening  for some other ideas.  

Hello All:

Really appreciate the discussion and it helps me quite a bit. At the moment I am not a Sicilian player so I will go with 1...d5 for the moment along with teh kingside fianchetto.

One difficulty I have with openings is when people start talking about a Reversed Dutch, etc. I just have a hard time picturing it in my head. Is this something that is relatively easy for many of you?

Take care,

Gerry

Black_Widow wrote on 11/13/07 at 20:03:33:


1...c5 is probably very OK, if Black is willing to meet the Anti-Sicilians. And I am not impressed by them.
It is also very logical to meet 1.f4 with the same setup as 1.d4 f5.

Gerry1970 wrote on 11/13/07 at 16:56:39:



If white goes Stonewalling, c5 is great because you develop the Queen early to c7 (after playing g6) and look to pressure the f4 pawn so that black can exchange favorably on d4 and hamper the development of white's queenside bishop and knight.  With white pawns on d4, e3, and f4, the white pieces start getting "gummed up" because they have to play defensive roles guarding the dark squares.

In most games that I have thrown out c5 against f4, white has opted gain some center with e4, but this simply transposes into favorable Grand Prix Sicilians, and being a long time Sicilian devotee, it plays right into the type of pawn formations that black likes and that most white Bird lovers are actually looking to avoid.  Else why not just throw out e4 to begin?

A good place to look is at some Yussupow (what's the currently correct spelling of?!) games in which he Stonewalls with white.  Even though he frequently wins these games, they are rife with good examples for black through the opening stages as it is not in the opening in which he is busting down black, but in his superior overall play in the second and third stages of the game.





edited 1x: spelling.

If you are learning the Dutch and want a "sound and positional" answer to 1. f4, you can simply play 1...d5 and then Nf6-g6-Bg7-00 as was suggested. When playing the Dutch you will have two kind of opponents : those who seek for early aggression (Bg5, Nc3) and those who want to exploit ...f7-f5 later in the middlegame. Try to be one of the second kind against the Bird ! One practical problem is that you'll give White the position he wants, and so the experience of each player will prevail over the objective merits of the opening. But after playing the Dutch for some time you should be comfortable meeting 1. f4. Perhaps you could post some of your games (or openings) to have a concrete fix ?

I would think that you might want to play in classical style (i.e. generally d5, Nf6, g6, Bg7, 0-0, c5 and Nc6 in some order), because (a) it is a fine way to play;  (b) it meets the description of being positional and not wild; (c) it might maximize the opportunity to apply ideas you learn in studying the Dutch (it's generally recognized that the tempo difference doesn't make much difference).  As for how to study it (aside from the Dutch link), I am less sure what to say -- though you may not be surprised to hear that when someone I know once asked me the same question, I loaned him ECO, telling him to play over the relevant lines (which probably took up about 3 pages) and try to get a feel for what was going on.