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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C55: Italian Game question (Read 34848 times)
kevinfat
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #38 - 04/05/11 at 07:15:03
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Anonymous3 wrote on 09/06/10 at 01:26:52:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/03/08 at 01:17:02:


Are you saying I am wrong to put my faith in Marin? Maybe I should look at it myself one day, then Anon can have a 4th opinion.


GM Tony Kosten, you are wrong to put your faith in Marin. Also, you never took a look at this in one of your updates. 

Anyway, I have taken a look at it myself and believe 5...Bxd4 gives Black the better chances. 

6 Nxd4 Nxd4 and now:

a)7 f4 d6 8 fxe5 dxe5 9 Bg5 Qe7 10 Na3 and now 10...Rg8!! as analyzed in "New in Chess Yearbook 92" and not mentioned in "Dangerous Weapons: 1 e4 e5". 

b)7 Bg5 h6! (This is better than 7...d6 which is playable but gives White enough compensation for the pawn after 8 f4. For example,  8...Qe7 is playable but isn't as effective as in the above line, 8...Be6 Na3! Qe7 10 fxe5 dxe5 11 c3 Bxc4 12 Bxf6! gives White enough compensation for the pawn as shown in "Dangerous Weapons: 1 e4 e5, and I think 8…Bg4!? 9 Bxf6 Bxd1 10 Bxd8 Rxd8 11 Rxd1 Nxc2 12 Nc3 Nxa1 13 Rxa1 exf4 is equal) 8 f4! hxg5 9 fxe5 Ne6 10 exf6 gxf6 and now: 
   b1) 11 Bxe6 fxe6 12 Nc3 d6 13 Qd3 Qe7 14 Rf3 Bd7 15 Raf1 Qh7 16 Rh3 Qg7 17 Rxh8+ Qxh8 18 Qc4 Ke7! 19 Qxc7 Qc8 20 Qxc8 Rxc8 =+. 
   b2) 11 Nc3 Qe7 12 Rf2 c6 13 Bxe6 dxe6! =+.


Your evaluation =+ of the line given as b2) strikes me as nonobvious.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4 Bxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Bg5 h6 8.f4 hxg5 9.fxe5 Ne6 10.exf6 gxf6 11.Nc3 Qe7 12.Rf2 c6 13.Bxe6 dxe6

Instead of 13.Bxe6 what about 13.Qd2. Its not obvious to me how black is going to castle queenside without making concessions. Do you have analysis to prove that after 13.Qd2 its =+.
  
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Master Om
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #37 - 09/10/10 at 04:36:01
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/06/10 at 23:35:08:
Anonymous3 wrote on 09/06/10 at 19:46:24:
Actually, 10...Rg8!! was analyzed in New in Chess Yearbook 92.

On which page? Somehow I don't find it.

http://www.c3chess.com/chessvideo/021Corner91.pdf
  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #36 - 09/07/10 at 18:05:17
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linksspringer wrote on 09/07/10 at 09:41:04:
Anonymous3 wrote on 09/07/10 at 01:27:03:

On the New in Chess site they have sample artciles from the New in Chess Yearbooks and it's under "Playable and Interesting - But not the Best -" and it says it's from yearbook 92. 

That article is on the Evans gambit, not the Max Lange gambit.



Oops! Sorry, It's actually under Sosonkos's corner in yearbook 91!
  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #35 - 09/07/10 at 09:41:04
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Anonymous3 wrote on 09/07/10 at 01:27:03:

On the New in Chess site they have sample artciles from the New in Chess Yearbooks and it's under "Playable and Interesting - But not the Best -" and it says it's from yearbook 92. 

That article is on the Evans gambit, not the Max Lange gambit.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #34 - 09/07/10 at 04:29:56
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In Kaissiber Lev Gutman had recommended 11.Qe1 0-0-0 12.Qf2!. For some reason John Emms in DW prefered 11.Qd2, after 11....0-0-0 12.Qf2 returning to Gutman's analysis. In NIC Yearbook 94 Gutman warns that 11.Qd2 Ne6 =+ and 11.Qd2 Bc6! =+ are better for Black. 

He not only defends his original choice 11.Qe1, but adds new ideas after 11.Qe1 0-0-0 12.Kh1!?. It would be pointless to repeat his analyses here. Those who are interested in the Max Lange Gambit should really study Gutman's new Yearbook analyses. 
  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #33 - 09/07/10 at 02:57:20
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1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 0-0 Nf6 5 d4!? Bxd4 6 Nxd4 Nxd4 7 f4 d6 8 fxe5 dxe5 9 Bg5 Qe7 10 Na3 Bd7 11 Qd2 now: 

Aren't 11...Bc6 and 11...b5 slightly better for Black?  

11...Ne6 now "Dangerous Weapons: 1 e4 e5's" recommendation is 12 Bxf6 gxf6 13 Qe3 Rg8 14 Kh1 Rg6 (the computers first suggestion is 14...b6 and they think Black is better. This is not mentioned in the book Isn't this slightly better for Black?)15 Rad1 now isn't the computers first  suggestion is 15...b6 and they think Black is better and this is not mentioned in the book. Isn't this slightly better for Black?
  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #32 - 09/07/10 at 01:27:03
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/06/10 at 23:26:58:
Anonymous3 wrote on 09/06/10 at 19:46:24:
12 Qf3 Rh6 13 Nd2 now the computers suggest 13...b6 =+. 

I don't have the analysis by Gutman but after 8 Bh4 I think 8...Qe7 is =+.

In the first case, 13...b6, White seems to equalize: 14.e5 Ba6 15.Ne4 f5 16.g4 Bxf1 17.Rxf1 f4 18.Nxg5!.

Against Adolf Rosentreter's 7.Bg5, the line 7...h6 8.Bh4 Qe7 9.f4 d6 "etc." was Tartakower's recommendation in Die hypermoderne Schachpartie, 1925. Gutman has analyzed it on one page in said Kaissiber issue. His main line went 9.Nc3 g5 10.Bg3 d6 11.f4 gxf4 12.Bh4 Rg8 13.Nd5 Nxd5 14.Bxe7 Ne3 15.Qh5 Nxc4 16.Bf6 Nxc2 17.Rac1 N2e3 18.Rf2 Rg6 19.Qh4 Be6 20.b3 Ng4 21.bxc4 Nxf6 22.c5 dxc5 23.Rxc5 0-0-0 24.Rxe5 Rd1+ 25.Rf1 Rd2 26.Rf2 Rd1+, leading to a draw.


That's some great analysis on 13...b6. 

It seems that White can equalize after 7...h6. Thanks for all the analysis Stefan Buecker. 

On the New in Chess site they have sample artciles from the New in Chess Yearbooks and it's under "Playable and Interesting - But not the Best -" and it says it's from yearbook 92. 
  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #31 - 09/06/10 at 23:35:08
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Anonymous3 wrote on 09/06/10 at 19:46:24:
Actually, 10...Rg8!! was analyzed in New in Chess Yearbook 92.

On which page? Somehow I don't find it.
  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #30 - 09/06/10 at 23:26:58
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Anonymous3 wrote on 09/06/10 at 19:46:24:
12 Qf3 Rh6 13 Nd2 now the computers suggest 13...b6 =+. 

I don't have the analysis by Gutman but after 8 Bh4 I think 8...Qe7 is =+.

In the first case, 13...b6, White seems to equalize: 14.e5 Ba6 15.Ne4 f5 16.g4 Bxf1 17.Rxf1 f4 18.Nxg5!.

Against Adolf Rosentreter's 7.Bg5, the line 7...h6 8.Bh4 Qe7 9.f4 d6 "etc." was Tartakower's recommendation in Die hypermoderne Schachpartie, 1925. Gutman has analyzed it on one page in said Kaissiber issue. His main line went 9.Nc3 g5 10.Bg3 d6 11.f4 gxf4 12.Bh4 Rg8 13.Nd5 Nxd5 14.Bxe7 Ne3 15.Qh5 Nxc4 16.Bf6 Nxc2 17.Rac1 N2e3 18.Rf2 Rg6 19.Qh4 Be6 20.b3 Ng4 21.bxc4 Nxf6 22.c5 dxc5 23.Rxc5 0-0-0 24.Rxe5 Rd1+ 25.Rf1 Rd2 26.Rf2 Rd1+, leading to a draw.
  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #29 - 09/06/10 at 19:51:35
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TopNotch wrote on 09/06/10 at 13:21:55:
Anonymous3 wrote on 09/06/10 at 01:26:52:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/03/08 at 01:17:02:


Are you saying I am wrong to put my faith in Marin? Maybe I should look at it myself one day, then Anon can have a 4th opinion.


GM Tony Kosten, you are wrong to put your faith in Marin. Also, you never took a look at this in one of your updates. 

Anyway, I have taken a look at it myself and believe 5...Bxd4 gives Black the better chances. 

6 Nxd4 Nxd4 and now:

a)7 f4 d6 8 fxe5 dxe5 9 Bg5 Qe7 10 Na3 and now 10...Rg8!! as analyzed in "New in Chess Yearbook 92" and not mentioned in "Dangerous Weapons: 1 e4 e5".

b)7 Bg5 h6! (This is better than 7...d6 which is playable but gives White enough compensation for the pawn after 8 f4. For example,  8...Qe7 is playable but isn't as effective as in the above line, 8...Be6 Na3! Qe7 10 fxe5 dxe5 11 c3 Bxc4 12 Bxf6! gives White enough compensation for the pawn as shown in "Dangerous Weapons: 1 e4 e5, and I think 8…Bg4!? 9 Bxf6 Bxd1 10 Bxd8 Rxd8 11 Rxd1 Nxc2 12 Nc3 Nxa1 13 Rxa1 exf4 is equal) 8 f4! hxg5 9 fxe5 Ne6 10 exf6 gxf6 and now: 
   b1) 11 Bxe6 fxe6 12 Nc3 d6 13 Qd3 Qe7 14 Rf3 Bd7 15 Raf1 Qh7 16 Rh3 Qg7 17 Rxh8+ Qxh8 18 Qc4 Ke7! 19 Qxc7 Qc8 20 Qxc8 Rxc8 =+. 
   b2) 11 Nc3 Qe7 12 Rf2 c6 13 Bxe6 dxe6! =+.

Why would Dangerous Weapons mention 10...Rg8, isn't that a very recent development.


It is the computers first suggestion. The reason I said it wasn't mentioned in Dangerous Weapons: 1 e4 e5 was because this is the most up to date book that I have that covers this line from the White side. 
  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #28 - 09/06/10 at 19:46:24
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/06/10 at 09:34:22:
Anonymous3 wrote on 09/06/10 at 01:26:52:
   

@Anonymous3 In "b1", the PC suggests 12.Qf3 (instead of 12.Nc3) 12...Rh6 13.Nd2 d6 14.Nc4 e5 15.Rad1 Qe7 16.Qb3 Qh7 17.Qb5+ Bd7 18.Qxb7 Rc8 19.Rxd6 cxd6 20.Nxd6+ Kd8 21.h3 Rxc2 22.Qb8+ Ke7 23.Nf5+ Bxf5 24.exf5 Rxh3 25.Qxa7+ etc., the resulting rook ending looks equal. 

Instead of 8 f4, studied by Gutman in Kaissiber 24 on 1 page, there is still the traditional main line 8 Bh4. On 4.5 pages, Gutman's result was "=".

Gutman's analysis of "a", Roman Dzindzichashvili's new idea 10...Rg8 in New in Chess Yearbook 94 (not 92, as in your post)


12 Qf3 Rh6 13 Nd2 now the computers suggest 13...b6 =+. 

I don't have the analysis by Gutman but after 8 Bh4 I think 8...Qe7 is =+.  

Actually, 10...Rg8!! was analyzed in New in Chess Yearbook 92.
  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #27 - 09/06/10 at 13:21:55
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Anonymous3 wrote on 09/06/10 at 01:26:52:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/03/08 at 01:17:02:


Are you saying I am wrong to put my faith in Marin? Maybe I should look at it myself one day, then Anon can have a 4th opinion.


GM Tony Kosten, you are wrong to put your faith in Marin. Also, you never took a look at this in one of your updates. 

Anyway, I have taken a look at it myself and believe 5...Bxd4 gives Black the better chances. 

6 Nxd4 Nxd4 and now:

a)7 f4 d6 8 fxe5 dxe5 9 Bg5 Qe7 10 Na3 and now 10...Rg8!! as analyzed in "New in Chess Yearbook 92" and not mentioned in "Dangerous Weapons: 1 e4 e5".

b)7 Bg5 h6! (This is better than 7...d6 which is playable but gives White enough compensation for the pawn after 8 f4. For example,  8...Qe7 is playable but isn't as effective as in the above line, 8...Be6 Na3! Qe7 10 fxe5 dxe5 11 c3 Bxc4 12 Bxf6! gives White enough compensation for the pawn as shown in "Dangerous Weapons: 1 e4 e5, and I think 8…Bg4!? 9 Bxf6 Bxd1 10 Bxd8 Rxd8 11 Rxd1 Nxc2 12 Nc3 Nxa1 13 Rxa1 exf4 is equal) 8 f4! hxg5 9 fxe5 Ne6 10 exf6 gxf6 and now: 
   b1) 11 Bxe6 fxe6 12 Nc3 d6 13 Qd3 Qe7 14 Rf3 Bd7 15 Raf1 Qh7 16 Rh3 Qg7 17 Rxh8+ Qxh8 18 Qc4 Ke7! 19 Qxc7 Qc8 20 Qxc8 Rxc8 =+. 
   b2) 11 Nc3 Qe7 12 Rf2 c6 13 Bxe6 dxe6! =+.



Why would Dangerous Weapons mention 10...Rg8, isn't that a very recent development.

It is unlikely that this line will be covered in future updates as Mikhailevski seems to only cover games from Super GM events, and not a wider cross section as other authors. This is a glaring weakness in this section, as interesting chess is sometimes below Super GM level.  

Quote: Buecker - You are refering to Dangerous Weapons 1.e4 e5. Emms' chapter on the Max Lange Gambit was based on Lev Gutman's work in Kaissiber #23 and #24, leaving out many lines, since Emms gives a repertoire for White, and not many new ideas. 

This sounds like a slight to me, and best left to Emms and company to respond.

Tops Smiley
  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #26 - 09/06/10 at 09:34:22
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Anonymous3 wrote on 09/06/10 at 01:26:52:
   b2) 11 Nc3 Qe7 12 Rf2 c6 13 Bxe6 dxe6! =+. [/b]

@Anonymous3
Your idea 11...Qe7 improves upon Gutman's 11...c6 12.e5! in Kaissiber 24, p.44. White could try 13.Qd2 followed by Rd1, but it may still be =+. 

In "b1", the PC suggests 12.Qf3 (instead of 12.Nc3) 12...Rh6 13.Nd2 d6 14.Nc4 e5 15.Rad1 Qe7 16.Qb3 Qh7 17.Qb5+ Bd7 18.Qxb7 Rc8 19.Rxd6 cxd6 20.Nxd6+ Kd8 21.h3 Rxc2 22.Qb8+ Ke7 23.Nf5+ Bxf5 24.exf5 Rxh3 25.Qxa7+ etc., the resulting rook ending looks equal. 

Instead of 8 f4, studied by Gutman in Kaissiber 24 on 1 page, there is still the traditional main line 8 Bh4. On 4.5 pages, Gutman's result was "=". 

Gutman's analysis of "a", Roman Dzindzichashvili's new idea 10...Rg8 in New in Chess Yearbook 94 (not 92, as in your post), p. 101, ends with =. It is a very long analysis, so there may be improvements, your =+ maybe only means that you prefer Black.

You are refering to Dangerous Weapons 1.e4 e5. Emms' chapter on the Max Lange Gambit was based on Lev Gutman's work in Kaissiber #23 and #24, leaving out many lines, since Emms gives a repertoire for White, and not many new ideas.
  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #25 - 09/06/10 at 01:26:52
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/03/08 at 01:17:02:


Are you saying I am wrong to put my faith in Marin? Maybe I should look at it myself one day, then Anon can have a 4th opinion.


GM Tony Kosten, you are wrong to put your faith in Marin. Also, you never took a look at this in one of your updates. 

Anyway, I have taken a look at it myself and believe 5...Bxd4 gives Black the better chances. 

6 Nxd4 Nxd4 and now:

a)7 f4 d6 8 fxe5 dxe5 9 Bg5 Qe7 10 Na3 and now 10...Rg8!! as analyzed in "New in Chess Yearbook 92" and not mentioned in "Dangerous Weapons: 1 e4 e5". 

b)7 Bg5 h6! (This is better than 7...d6 which is playable but gives White enough compensation for the pawn after 8 f4. For example,  8...Qe7 is playable but isn't as effective as in the above line, 8...Be6 Na3! Qe7 10 fxe5 dxe5 11 c3 Bxc4 12 Bxf6! gives White enough compensation for the pawn as shown in "Dangerous Weapons: 1 e4 e5, and I think 8…Bg4!? 9 Bxf6 Bxd1 10 Bxd8 Rxd8 11 Rxd1 Nxc2 12 Nc3 Nxa1 13 Rxa1 exf4 is equal) 8 f4! hxg5 9 fxe5 Ne6 10 exf6 gxf6 and now: 
   b1) 11 Bxe6 fxe6 12 Nc3 d6 13 Qd3 Qe7 14 Rf3 Bd7 15 Raf1 Qh7 16 Rh3 Qg7 17 Rxh8+ Qxh8 18 Qc4 Ke7! 19 Qxc7 Qc8 20 Qxc8 Rxc8 =+. 
   b2) 11 Nc3 Qe7 12 Rf2 c6 13 Bxe6 dxe6! =+.

  
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Re: Italian Game question
Reply #24 - 08/06/08 at 17:04:12
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Tomas wrote on 08/06/08 at 12:44:34:
after 7.Bg5 black plays 7... Be3 8. Na3
White has got good compensation for pawn, but black has got chances

What's that?! The bishop was beaten on sixth move! Cheesy
  
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