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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) italian game; is it outdated? (Read 18059 times)
MNb
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #8 - 01/27/08 at 10:37:21
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Wcywing, I definitely do not recommend to play the Sicilian as Black now for two reasons. It will take too much time as you also study a main line from the Ruy Lopez. This time you should rather spend on middle game and endgame. The second reason is that on your level literally nobody will play 2.Nf3 and 3.d4.
But as you play 1.e4 yourself you must have something against the Sicilian yourself.

4...Bb4+ 5.c3 dxc3 6.0-0 is somewhat inferior because of an old Steinitz suggestion: cxb2 7.Bxb2 Nf6 8.Ng5 (8.a3 Ba5 9.e5 Nh5!?) 0-0 9.e5 Nxe5! 10.Bxe5 d5. But 6.bxc3 is fun, eg Ba5 7.0-0 Nge7 8.Ng5 Ne5 9.Bb3 h6 (best d5 10.exd5 +=; 0-0 10.f4 N5g6 11.Qh5 or even 0-0 10.Nxh7) 10.f4 hxg5 11.fxe5 0-0 12.Bxg5 eg Qe8 13.Bf6!
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #7 - 01/27/08 at 00:35:52
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its amazing to see that even higer level players get lost in an opening, when i was a 1200 rating, i was beating 1300-1400's using the italian game and they did not correctly, one tried an early Qf6 or an early h6  Shocked.  i don't think 1700's on up will make those errors.   

i will probaly use the italain game and the scotch game/gambit before i learn the subtle ruy lopez.
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #6 - 01/26/08 at 17:49:40
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Speaking of the Scotch Gambit, here is a sample from a game I just came across, in which a class A player (in US terms) manages to be lost in 6 moves.  I have the impression that 4...Bb4+ is common at lower levels, though it has long been considered bad.  As far as I know, 6. 0-0 is also very good for White.    


[Event "6th Gibtelecom Masters"]
[Site "Gibraltar ENG"]
[Date "2008.01.23"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Arnott,J"]
[Black "Gonzalez Amaya,M"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2117"]
[BlackElo "1823"]
[EventDate "2008.01.22"]
[ECO "C44"]

1. e4 e5 2. d4 exd4 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. Bc4 Bb4+ 5. c3 dxc3 6. bxc3 Be7 7. Qd5
Nh6 8. Bxh6 O-O 9. Be3 d6 10. O-O Be6 11. Qd3 Bg4 12. Nbd2 Bf6 13. Bd4 Bxd4
14. cxd4 Qf6 15. Rab1 Ne7 16. Rxb7 c5 17. e5 1-0
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #5 - 01/26/08 at 16:36:03
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i will consider scotch game/gambit, at the club level at least when i played, the most aggressive/tatial player wins.  

i have something for the philidor/petroff players.  i use to be a petroff player but got frustrated when people played drawing/boring lines like the Qe2 or an early Nc3  Angry  i am learning the open games as black, i have Marin's book, but i will probaly should get Emms book, i heard it is much better.  against the ruy i will play the archangel/new archangel more than likely.  

i will start a sicilian thread, i will probaly play accelerated dragon or maybe the Pelikan.  

  
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MNb
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #4 - 01/26/08 at 03:10:27
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wcywing wrote on 01/26/08 at 01:38:53:

i know at the club level anything is sound, even the BDG   Wink


Which means you should keep three things in mind:
1. chose an opening that helps you to learn something. Ie I learned quite something by playing the Danish, though I would not recommend it these days. But I am convinced, like Markovich, that playing these lines of the Italian will help you to improve your tactical abilities, your feeling for sacrificial play (compensation on the long term) and also endgames.
2. do not make my mistake. Do not play these lines too long (two or three years should suffice, let's say until you have an ELO of 1700 or something) and do not spend too much time analyzing them. You must improve your endgame (get yourself some elementary endgame book), your tactics (abundance of choice) and positional play (again a lot more available than 25 years ago).
3. make sure you play different kind of openings. Eg I also second Markovich' recommendation 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 - teaches you about the IQP.

I agree with Kylemeister that you should consider 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4. This  opens the game immediately, so it increases your chances of a tactical melee. 4...Bc5 (Nf6 5.0-0 see my previous post; d6 5.Nxd4 is a variation of the Hungarian) 5.c3 Nf6 (dxc3 6.Nxc3 d6 7.o-o and 8.Bg5 is a kind of Göring Gambit; d3 6.0-0 d6 7.b4 Bb6 8.a4) 6.0-0 is the nameless Italian Gambit mentioned above.
Alas such a nice transpositional trick does not exist for the Evans Gambit.

As you intend to turn to the Ruy Lopez, it is better to stick to 2.Nf3 (2.d4 also has some transpositional nuances) as you will have to find something against the Petrov and Philidor anyway.
Keep track with the repertoire suggested by Greet. One day - rather sooner than later - you will need it.

Shouldn't you open a similar thread on the Sicilian as well? For 1.e4 players it is the second opening to master, immediately after the Open Games.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #3 - 01/26/08 at 01:38:53
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MNb wrote on 01/25/08 at 23:38:24:
I Have you ever considered the Evans?
II Somewhat obscure, but not worse than the G-M is 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.0-0, main line Nxe4 7.cxd4 d5! (Be7 8.d5 is fun for White) 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2 Qd3 10.Re1 f5 (Bf5? drops a piece; so does Qxe2 11.Rxe2 Bf5? 12.g4) 11.Nc3 0-0 12.Nxe4 fxe4 13.Qxe4 Bf5 14.Qh4 Rad8 (Black has other options) 15.Be3 Qd5 16.Rac1 Bd3 17.Qg3 about equal. White must beware of 17.a3?/17.h3? Rxf3!

What do you play after 3...Nf6 ? I suggest 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 (evt 5.e5) Nxe4 (Bc5 6.c3 transposes to the Italian above) 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3

On higher level the most popular version of the Italian is a setup with c3 and d3, but this leads to a slow manoeuvring game.


yes, i do play d4 against the two knights, i use to play Ng5 but i never like playing against the Na5 variation.  i will look at the other variations you mentioned.  the evans gambit is a good possibility, if Kasparov used it in a match, it has to be good right?  Cheesy

i know at the club level anything is sound, even the BDG   Wink  i know the italian game is good at club level however i like to improve my chess, and play against stronger opposition, i don't know if the italian game can still cut the mustard.  

i have thought about the ruy lopez, especially the worrall system.  i have Geet's book and i'm still reading it, have not tried it yet though.  i know it is very different than the italian game.    

i will look at the scotch gambit and 4 N's scotch game.  i will probaly still use the italian against equal or weaker opposition, not sure against much higher rated opponents.  

however i do know it the players that wins the games, not the opening, unless it is unsound.   Smiley
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #2 - 01/26/08 at 01:16:12
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I would have to say that for a player rated about 1400, concern about whether the Italian is "outdated" is misplaced.  You could also consider the Scotch Gambit 3. d4 ed 4. Bc4 (generally transposing to a 2 Knights or Giuoco unless Black plays something inferior) or (leaving Italy) the Four Knights Scotch.  (For example, I can think of a couple of GMs who managed to lose rather quickly in the latter in the last few years ...)
  
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MNb
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #1 - 01/25/08 at 23:38:24
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I have never been convinced by 4.d4, 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4 and the Greco-Moller. But I have a few Italian suggestions for you.
I Have you ever considered the Evans?
II Somewhat obscure, but not worse than the G-M is 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.0-0, main line Nxe4 7.cxd4 d5! (Be7 8.d5 is fun for White) 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2 Qd3 10.Re1 f5 (Bf5? drops a piece; so does Qxe2 11.Rxe2 Bf5? 12.g4) 11.Nc3 0-0 12.Nxe4 fxe4 13.Qxe4 Bf5 14.Qh4 Rad8 (Black has other options) 15.Be3 Qd5 16.Rac1 Bd3 17.Qg3 about equal. White must beware of 17.a3?/17.h3? Rxf3!

What do you play after 3...Nf6 ? I suggest 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 (evt 5.e5) Nxe4 (Bc5 6.c3 transposes to the Italian above) 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3
a) 8...Qa5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5 0-0-0 11.Nxe6 fxe6 12.Rxe6.
b) 8...Qd8 9.Rxe4+ Be7 10.Nxd4 f5 11.Bh6!? fxe4 12.Bxg7 Rf8 13.Qh5+ Rf7 14.Rad1 Qd6 15.Ndb5 Qf4 16.Nd5 Qxf2+ 17.Kh1 Bd7 18.Nf6+ Bxf6 19.Nxc7+ Ke7 20.Nd5+ and draw.
c) 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4.
As soon as your opponents are capable of handling these lines well it is time to change your repertoire anyway.

On higher level the most popular version of the Italian is a setup with c3 and d3, but this leads to a slow manoeuvring game.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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wcywing
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italian game; is it outdated?
01/25/08 at 21:42:26
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my main opening as white is the italian game, i like playing the italian gambit either  by 4. d4!? OR 4.O-O, 5. d4!?  i have read Jude Acers's book but i am not convinced at his miami variation, and the variations i play he seems to refute with a simple d6.  the variations he has might be refuted in opening lanes on chess cafe.  i will provide a link if anyone wants to look at that.  

the main lines like Bd2 and Nc3 !? moller gambit seem to be dated.  perhaps i have not done enough research.  i have had many good wins with it even against higher rated opponents, but i feel it may be to simple to equalize or even to beat.  maybe i am a bit paranoid.  i'm curious to what everyone thinks.  

i am rated 1414 and like tactical openings, but i think italian game is outdated.     any comments or ideas will be appreciated.
  
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