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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? (Read 61556 times)
Lauri Torni
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #112 - Today at 18:21:00
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edgy wrote Today at 03:56:27:
Lauri Torni wrote yesterday at 21:26:22:
George Jempty wrote on 08/03/26 at 13:34:43:
FreeRepublic wrote on 07/20/26 at 17:24:02:
After <SNIP> 5. O-O the move covered by all authors is <SNIP>


*All authors?  Seriously?  And *Nobody Cares Anymore* what chess opening book authors cover anymore!  I'm a mere centaur/corres. expert/master, and I personally can OUT-DO what any author covers with SF18.  And that's why, 5...b5 6.Ba4 Be7 is *indisputably* the best answer to 5.0-0 in my NOT humble opinion.

In fact right now I have a centaur games that has entered what to me seems to constitute a (very seldom played to this point) *new tabiya* in the (overall) Spanish: 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.O-O b5 6.Bb3 Be7 7.c3 Bb7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Re1 O-O 10.Nbd2 exd4 11.cxd4 Nb4

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What can play 10.h3 and we have the Zaitsev.


h3 doesn't seem have a lot of point, though.  Nf1 and Qe2 both seem more germane. 


I know. The point was that this position must be good for white if even 10.h3 still offers white good changes for an advantage.
  
1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #111 - Today at 13:35:01
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FreeRepublic wrote on 07/20/26 at 17:24:02:
After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O the move covered by all authors is 5...Bd7, with some covering 5...Bg4 also. Another move is 5...Nf6.

As mentioned on this thread, 5...b5 is another option. Also 5...Be7.

Lajos Portisch wrote My Secrets in the Ruy Lopez. Many of the games he analyzed include an early ...Be7, on move 3, 4 or 5. Many feature an early ...d6 and ...Bg4, holding the pawn on b7. Many of the games are in the Modern Steinitz by some move order. If you want a structured look at the opening, it can be maddening. On the other hand, if you'd like to broaden your thinking -rejecting dogma, this may be like a breath of fresh air.

Most, perhaps all, of these games were played before computers got so strong. That's not so bad. Fischer studied Steinitz and Carlsen knows the classic games of the past. On the other hand, Nakamura said he never owned a chess book as a child.

I think most of today's masters and grandmasters use computers and strong engines. I find it interesting when GMs get it right in published analysis and computers get it wrong for several moves until, following along, they "get it." I suppose there are various explanations including tactical vision catching up to the result of strategical thinking.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #110 - Today at 03:56:27
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Lauri Torni wrote yesterday at 21:26:22:
George Jempty wrote on 08/03/26 at 13:34:43:
FreeRepublic wrote on 07/20/26 at 17:24:02:
After <SNIP> 5. O-O the move covered by all authors is <SNIP>


*All authors?  Seriously?  And *Nobody Cares Anymore* what chess opening book authors cover anymore!  I'm a mere centaur/corres. expert/master, and I personally can OUT-DO what any author covers with SF18.  And that's why, 5...b5 6.Ba4 Be7 is *indisputably* the best answer to 5.0-0 in my NOT humble opinion.

In fact right now I have a centaur games that has entered what to me seems to constitute a (very seldom played to this point) *new tabiya* in the (overall) Spanish: 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.O-O b5 6.Bb3 Be7 7.c3 Bb7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Re1 O-O 10.Nbd2 exd4 11.cxd4 Nb4

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What can play 10.h3 and we have the Zaitsev.


h3 doesn't seem have a lot of point, though.  Nf1 and Qe2 both seem more germane. 
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #109 - yesterday at 21:26:22
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George Jempty wrote on 08/03/26 at 13:34:43:
FreeRepublic wrote on 07/20/26 at 17:24:02:
After <SNIP> 5. O-O the move covered by all authors is <SNIP>


*All authors?  Seriously?  And *Nobody Cares Anymore* what chess opening book authors cover anymore!  I'm a mere centaur/corres. expert/master, and I personally can OUT-DO what any author covers with SF18.  And that's why, 5...b5 6.Ba4 Be7 is *indisputably* the best answer to 5.0-0 in my NOT humble opinion.

In fact right now I have a centaur games that has entered what to me seems to constitute a (very seldom played to this point) *new tabiya* in the (overall) Spanish: 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.O-O b5 6.Bb3 Be7 7.c3 Bb7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Re1 O-O 10.Nbd2 exd4 11.cxd4 Nb4

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*


What can play 10.h3 and we have the Zaitsev.
  
1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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George Jempty
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #108 - 08/03/26 at 13:34:43
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FreeRepublic wrote on 07/20/26 at 17:24:02:
After <SNIP> 5. O-O the move covered by all authors is <SNIP>


*All authors?  Seriously?  And *Nobody Cares Anymore* what chess opening book authors cover anymore!  I'm a mere centaur/corres. expert/master, and I personally can OUT-DO what any author covers with SF18.  And that's why, 5...b5 6.Ba4 Be7 is *indisputably* the best answer to 5.0-0 in my NOT humble opinion.

In fact right now I have a centaur games that has entered what to me seems to constitute a (very seldom played to this point) *new tabiya* in the (overall) Spanish: 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.O-O b5 6.Bb3 Be7 7.c3 Bb7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Re1 O-O 10.Nbd2 exd4 11.cxd4 Nb4

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« Last Edit: yesterday at 08:23:24 by GMTonyKosten »  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #107 - 07/20/26 at 17:24:02
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After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O the move covered by all authors is 5...Bd7, with some covering 5...Bg4 also. Another move is 5...Nf6. For example 5...Nf6 6. Re1 Bd7 7. c3 g6 8. d4 Bg7 reaches an SDD position covered by several authors. White has alternatives, as he always does, but I'm not aware of anything that is very strong.
  
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George Jempty
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #106 - 07/18/26 at 20:48:09
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FreeRepublic wrote on 07/08/26 at 15:19:51:
katar wrote on 06/29/26 at 21:15:35:
Luis Rodi: Beat the Ruy Lopez with the Steinitz Deferred

The hardcover edition is expected in November for $55. A PDF sample is available online:
https://thinkerspublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/06/BEAT-the-RL-LUIS-RODI-...

The PDF contains the table of contents. The book will have about 100 pages on the Yandemirov variation!


What a waste of ink!
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #105 - 07/17/26 at 12:09:00
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The Steinitz Defense Deferred by GM Davorin Kuljasevic, December 23, 2016, provides excellent coverage of this opening. As an older title, the price is discounted and Modern-chess is currently having a sale on their data bases. By my calculation, this is currently available for less than 5 Euros.

https://www.modern-chess.com/course/the-steinitz-defense-deferred/57830/
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #104 - 07/08/26 at 15:53:56
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The correct reading of the previous post is "Louis Paulsen – who used it to defeat none other than Adolph Anderssen in 1871."

Other players to play the Modern Steinitz were:
Simon Alapin, Joseph Blackburne, David Janowski, Richard Teichmann, Jacques Mieses, Jackson Showalter and, of course, Wilhelm Steinitz himself
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #103 - 07/08/26 at 15:19:51
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katar wrote on 06/29/26 at 21:15:35:
Luis Rodi: Beat the Ruy Lopez with the Steinitz Deferred

The hardcover edition is expected in November for $55. A PDF sample is available online:
https://thinkerspublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/06/BEAT-the-RL-LUIS-RODI-...

The PDF contains the table of contents. The book will have about 100 pages on the Yandemirov variation! From the introduction:
"...Black's strategy was used by masters such as Louis Paulsen – who used it to defeat none other than Adolph Anderssen in 1871 – Simon Alapin, Joseph Blackburne, David Janowski, Richard Teichmann, Jacques Mieses, Jackson Showalter and, of course, Wilhelm Steinitz himself."
A portion of chapter 1 is also included.

I wonder if the book will be available in electronic form(s).
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #102 - 06/30/26 at 11:46:21
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katar wrote on 06/29/26 at 21:15:35:
by author Luis Rodi: Beat the Ruy Lopez with the Steinitz Deferred?

I liked his book on the Queen's Gambit Declined, available from Thinker's Press and Forward Chess. I hope that his book on the Steinitz Deferred will become available at Forward Chess.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #101 - 06/29/26 at 21:15:35
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Any opinions or reviews about the new book by author Luis Rodi: Beat the Ruy Lopez with the Steinitz Deferred?
At 512 pages it could also be used as a piece of masonry.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #100 - 06/26/26 at 15:39:14
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/24/26 at 16:16:15:
Perhaps the main position in the Modern Steinitz (or Steinitz defense deferred) is reached after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 g6 7. O-O Bg7.

One option for white is 8.Be3. A possible continuation, (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 g6 7. O-O Bg7) 8. Be3 Nf6 9. Nbd2
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I can't help but think of this as the Ruy Lopez vs. the King's Indian defense.

Both 9...Ng4 and 9...0-0 have been proposed and played. A few moves more:  9...Ng4 10. Bg5 f6 11. Bh4. Kuljasevic and Papaioannou consider 11...g5 and 11...Qe7.  11...0-0, 11...Ne7 and 11...h5 have been played also. Stockish likes white initially. Black has done well in human games.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #99 - 06/24/26 at 16:16:15
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I wasn't so much recommending for or against the Taimanov/Norwegian variation as much as pointing out a published resource. Nor am I recommending for or against the Siesta and Yandemirov. They are sharp and interesting and make a good match for one another.

Perhaps the main position in the Modern Steinitz (or Steinitz defense deferred) is reached after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 g6 7. O-O Bg7. (Tim Taylor argued that 7...Nf6 was more precise than the immediate 7...Bg7 in his 2011 book, but they usually end up transposing). If Black intends to reach this position after 5.c3, I think he might as well attempt to reach it after 5.O-O (5. 0-0 Bd7 6. c3 g6 7. d4 Bg7). White can diverge with 6d4, which is interesting but not clearly better IMO.

Modern-chess has three databases on the Modern Steinitz:
The Steinitz Defense Deferred  by GM Davorin Kuljasevic  December 23, 2016
Deferred Steinitz for Black by GM Lucas van Foreest and GM Pier Luigi Basso May 2025
1.e4 e5 for Black - Repertoire against the Ruy Lopez  by GM Ioannis Papaioannou  June 21, 2023. He covers the Chigorin and Steinitz Defense Deferred.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #98 - 06/24/26 at 09:23:58
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Well right, I've never disputed that Black CAN tranpose into the Norwegian, however I've determined through centaur play, that it is a tough road for Black and would never play it OTB.  I think my idea of 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 Be7!? is more of a fighting chance, especially if subsequently played with ...Bb7 before developing on the Kside.

Anyway, Black has options against 5.0-0, but I do reject 5...Bg4 based on computer analysis.  I actually used to play it, so my rejection of it is objective.

FreeRepublic wrote on 06/22/26 at 21:03:19:
Whether recommended or not, black can transpose to the Norwegian variation after 5.0-0

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 Na5 7. d4 ed4 8. Nd4 Bb7. This position receives 3 chapters in Norwegian Variation Against Ruy Lopez: Complete Repertoire by GM Jobava and GM Basso, Modern-Chess:

"The Norwegian Variation emerges after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 b5 5.Bb3 Na5, creating immediate pressure on White's bishop pair while maintaining central tension. The subsequent 6.0-0 d6 7.d4 exd4 8.Nxd4 Bb7 leads to the critical position" mentioned above.

Based on their recommendation, this is something that players of the Steinitz defense deferred (SDD) might want to consider, especially if they like the Siesta variation, 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 f5!?

I did a search on TWIC from Jan 1st 2025 to the present on the position arising after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3! h5!? and was surprised that black did well from this oft ignored line. It may be an option if you are very strong, or very prepared, feel lucky, or just want to have fun. I dabble with the SDD so I may never commit to studying and playing this complicated line.

  
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