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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? (Read 57411 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #62 - 08/24/23 at 13:02:44
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Seems to me that choice between 4 ...d6 and 4 ...Nf6 is basically a matter of taste/individual choice. I don't see one way as stronger than the other if the aim is to play ...d6/Bd7 + ...g6 lines. Perhaps it comes down to what signals you want to give to your opponent and what specific lines you're happy to allow/have ruled out.

4 ...Nf6 5 0-0 d6 6 Bc6 bc 7 d4 ed 8 Qd4 Be7 9 Nc3 0-0 is just a transposition to 4 ...d6 5 Bc6 bc 6 d4 ed 7 Qd4 Nf6 (Kuljasevic also mentions the riskier 7 ...c5!? 8 Qd3 g6) 8 Nc3 Be7 9 0-0 0-0. After 4 ...Nf6 White could try 5 Qe2 or 5 0-0 d6 6 Re1, but neither prevents the ...Bd7/...g6 setup. And also after 5 0-0 d6 6 d4, Black can, should he wish, avoid the 6 ...b5 7 de ending with 6 ...Bd7 (i.e. transpose into 4 ...d6 5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6!), as played by the heroic Pragg!
  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #61 - 08/24/23 at 07:52:12
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Can't say if it's a problem, but playing 4...Nf6 rules out the Siesta Variation (with c3 f5) as well as the Portisch setup with d6, Bd7 first and then Nge7, Ng6, Be7, h6, Bg5. However, these lines are irrelevant if Black wants to play d6+g6 lines, That's why I wondered if 4...Nf6 is more accurate than 4...d6 when Black intends to play a ...g6 Deferred Steinitz?
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #60 - 08/23/23 at 22:13:40
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Kerangali wrote on 08/22/23 at 11:42:33:
is there a benefit with playing 4...Nf6 first?


Turning the question around, is there a problem with playing 4...Nf6 first? Sometimes a simple columnar display works best for me. ECO C(4), C79 rows 7 and 8 claim a slight advantage to White. However, after: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O d6 6. Bc6 bc6 7. d4 ed4 8. Qd4 Be7 9. Nc3 O-O

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Stockfish 16 computes the game as approximately equal. I don't think this is bad for Black. Black has to give up on the kind side fiancheto. However, that is also the case after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. Bc6 bc6 6. d4.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #59 - 08/23/23 at 19:54:38
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Kerangali wrote on 08/22/23 at 11:42:33:
is there a benefit with playing 4...Nf6 first?


One advantage of playing 4...Nf6 is that White will probably castle. In the Stenitz deferred White might play c3 d4 before castling. In typically confusing fashion, it might not matter! Consider:  1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 Nf6 7. O-O g6

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This may get you to positions reached by other move orders.
« Last Edit: 08/23/23 at 21:17:26 by FreeRepublic »  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #58 - 08/23/23 at 19:45:17
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FreeRepublic wrote on 07/21/23 at 19:02:08:
Other approaches by Black, for example a king side fianchetto, can be attempted against either 5c3 or 5O-O


Tim Taylor in Slay the Spanish treats the Black fiancheto of the king bishop as something of a universal system as it can come up after either 5.0-0 or 5c3. However, he notes that transposition are not guaranteed.

Certainly 50-0 Bd7 6c3 transposes to 5c3 Bd7 6c3. On the other hand, 5.0-0 Bd7 6c4 and 6d4 are distinct lines. Black, for his part, can play ...g6, ...Bd7 and ...Nf6 by different move orders.

Taylor:  "The basic motif of the Bishop Defence is that Black intends to fianchetto his king’s bishop. Black can play this against almost any move order by White, but must adapt himself to whatever White plays."

Perhaps ...g6 ...Bg7 is not a universal system, but it can be a goal against many moves.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #57 - 08/22/23 at 22:25:27
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Kerangali wrote on 07/18/23 at 06:46:24:
an extreme case of threat stronger than execution


Indeed!
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #56 - 08/22/23 at 20:55:55
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Kerangali wrote on 08/22/23 at 11:42:33:
is there a benefit with playing 4...Nf6 first?

Thanks for pointing out that course. I was not aware of it. As to your question, one advantage of playing 4...Nf6 instead of 4...d6 is to avoid the line:  1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. Bc6 bc6 6d4. This can be answered by 6...exd or 6...f6. With preparation, I think Black can welcome this line.

It seems that Jones' course tries to provide a ...g6 response whenever possible in the double-king pawn opening. It's an interesting idea and I wonder how well he can pull it off!

I prefer PGN or CBV files, but I have delved into the Chessable world. I often play through the moves in Chess Opening Wizard. It's a bit tedious. On the other hand, Chessable expects the user to play through moves anyway.
« Last Edit: 08/22/23 at 22:18:59 by FreeRepublic »  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #55 - 08/22/23 at 11:42:33
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Hi,
There's an 1.e4 e5 (for Black) Chessable course by Gawain Jones with many ...g6 lines, such as the Deferred Steinitz with ...g6. However, instead of playing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6, he first plays 4...Nf6 and then ...d6. Assuming one wants to play the ...g6 lines of the Deferred/Modern Steinitz, is there a benefit with playing 4...Nf6 first? (like avoiding the semi-forced draw after d4/c3, or optimal g6 lines).
« Last Edit: 08/22/23 at 13:07:14 by Kerangali »  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #54 - 07/21/23 at 19:02:08
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I realize that I was a little terse in my prior comment, so I will now expand now. My reasoning was that
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 f5!? 6. exf5 Bf5
and
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5!?
make a good match. They lead to disruptive chess, denying White a simple advantage. 

Other approaches by Black, for example a king side fianchetto, can be attempted against either 5c3 or 5O-O, so why not do so against both moves?

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5!? Here7.d4 is the main move, but it is very complicated. White might try for something simpler with 7. Bc6 bc6 8. d4 (...Qf6) Bf3 9. Qf3 ed4.

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Now White can consider 10e5, 10Re1, 10c3 and 10Rd1. Black is a pawn up for the moment but lags in development. His queen side pawns may become vulnerable. He might get something going on the king side with g5-4.

There are several resources available:  analysis at ChessPublishing and elsewhere, games played, and computer evaluations. The computer gives White the advantage for the moment. I analyzed one line with the computer and at some point it recalibrated and gave Black equality. To paraphrase a song by Billy Joel, it never is wrong, it just changes its mind. For now at least, I'll go with human evaluations!
« Last Edit: 07/22/23 at 13:59:38 by FreeRepublic »  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #53 - 07/20/23 at 13:27:41
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It would be nice to make
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O! Bg4 6. h3 h5 7. Bc6!? bc6 8. d4! work out for Black.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #52 - 07/20/23 at 12:55:36
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So an ancient main line move gets "!!" ... ah, marketing.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #51 - 07/20/23 at 12:46:22
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FWIW,

So, if you mean this one it's here:
https://thechessworld.com/store/product/club-players-repertoire-for-black-with-1...

However, to get to the vids will cost you the coin.  Smiley
If you meant the 1970 game I could not find it in my CB megabase.

Hope this helps!
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #50 - 07/20/23 at 12:45:11
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Kerangali wrote on 07/20/23 at 09:06:13:
Where did you see this information, if I may ask? the course looks interesting (apart from weird launch price) but I can't go past chapter titles

There's a mention of freezing White's queenside with ...Bd3, which I figured must be a reference to the Siesta (with 7. 0-0).
  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #49 - 07/20/23 at 09:06:13
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kylemeister wrote on 07/03/23 at 23:55:08:
So apparently Szabo goes with the Siesta.

Where did you see this information, if I may ask? the course looks interesting (apart from weird launch price) but I can't go past chapter titles
  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #48 - 07/18/23 at 06:46:24
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This screenshot apparently showing Black's ...Qg4-g3 must be an extreme case of threat stronger than execution Smiley
« Last Edit: 07/18/23 at 14:10:43 by Kerangali »  
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