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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez (Read 24971 times)
Markovich
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #22 - 09/08/08 at 01:44:08
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Bocajaka wrote on 09/03/08 at 09:04:53:
I'm sure I'm missing something since I don't exactly get the point with this move order. After 4...Nxe4 5.d4 a6 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Re1 and now if black goes 7...Nd6 then ...a6 has in effect lost a tempo to Re1.

Besides is really 4.d3, 4.Nc3 or 5.Re1 suboptimal? They are definetely not bad for white.


Well, you should check the article in NIC YB 87 by Lukacs and Hazai.  But in general, I think you misunderstand some things about this line.  For example, 7...Nf6, not 7...Nd6 is the idea.  A lot of people think that White's most critical answer is to transpose into the Open.

Lukacs and Hazai advocate 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Qe2 Bf5 8.Re1"!" which was sucessful in Ivanchuk -Carlsen, Linares 2008.  But after 8...Bd6! 9.Qd3! 0-0 10.Rxe4 Bxe4 11.Qxe4 they and seemingly everyone else is overlooking 11...f5! followed by ...e4 with quite strong kingside counterplay.  E.g. 12.Qd3 e4 13.Qb3+ Kh8 14.Ng5 Qe8.  My own modest discovery.
« Last Edit: 09/08/08 at 23:26:26 by Markovich »  
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Bocajaka
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #21 - 09/03/08 at 18:05:02
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Oh Bf5 ofcourse or perhaps Nf6.
  
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #20 - 09/03/08 at 16:50:12
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5. Re1 in the Berlin is surely better than 6. Re1 in the Open.  You sometimes see GMs beating GMs with the former.  The latter, not so much.
  
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #19 - 09/03/08 at 16:37:05
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Bocajaka wrote on 09/03/08 at 09:04:53:
I'm sure I'm missing something since I don't exactly get the point with this move order. After 4...Nxe4 5.d4 a6 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Re1 and now if black goes 7...Nd6 then ...a6 has in effect lost a tempo to Re1.


I believe the idea is that Black goes 7...Bf5, and doesn't lose castling priviliges after 8.dxe5.

Quote:
Besides is really 4.d3, 4.Nc3 or 5.Re1 suboptimal? They are definetely not bad for white and I suspect taht most players who play 3...Nf6 would probably be more happy anyway to reach the Berlin Wall since they are perhaps more prepared here.


4.d3 is probably no worse than 3...a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3.  Also no better.  4.Nc3 transposes to the Four Knights;  Black will normally have to know that anyway to play 1.e4 e5.  5.Re1 is not regarded as challenging, as far as I know.  Whether it's any better or worse than 6.Re1 in the Open Lopez I don't know.

  
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #18 - 09/03/08 at 09:04:53
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I'm sure I'm missing something since I don't exactly get the point with this move order. After 4...Nxe4 5.d4 a6 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Re1 and now if black goes 7...Nd6 then ...a6 has in effect lost a tempo to Re1.

Besides is really 4.d3, 4.Nc3 or 5.Re1 suboptimal? They are definetely not bad for white.
« Last Edit: 09/03/08 at 16:28:59 by Bocajaka »  
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Markovich
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #17 - 09/02/08 at 16:53:48
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A-Tong wrote on 08/31/08 at 21:33:08:



In NIC Yearbook 87, p 113 you can find a nice survey written by Lukacs and Hazai 


Yeah, I've read it.  They miss Black's best rejoinder to the idea they propose, however.
  
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #16 - 09/02/08 at 15:52:53
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farg wrote on 09/02/08 at 15:47:50:
i like the a6 move order as you often get the bishop pair which allows to press against weaker players...the 8. Sc3 line is the only one which is somehow "drawish"...  Fritz likes

8. Ne5  Be7  9. Bd6 !?

is there some obvious flaw ? the move preserves the bishop pair and if white exchanges on c6 wins a tempo against the (now) somewhat useless knight on d5 which cannot exchange, if not black can develop his other bishop to b7 and just enjoy his bishops...it's just if white can get some attack going along the e-file... any expert ?


What?
  
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #15 - 09/02/08 at 15:47:50
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i like the a6 move order as you often get the bishop pair which allows to press against weaker players...the 8. Sc3 line is the only one which is somehow "drawish"...  Fritz likes

8. Ne5  Be7  9. Bd6 !?

is there some obvious flaw ? the move preserves the bishop pair and if white exchanges on c6 wins a tempo against the (now) somewhat useless knight on d5 which cannot exchange, if not black can develop his other bishop to b7 and just enjoy his bishops...it's just if white can get some attack going along the e-file... any expert ?
  
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #14 - 08/31/08 at 21:33:08
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I play 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 and only after 5.d4 do I play ...a6.  I would recommend this approach to anyone.  It "treatens" the dread Berlin Wall and thus invites White to take a suboptimal path on move 4 or 5, and it also avoids the annoying Exchange Variation. [/quote]


In NIC Yearbook 87, p 113 you can find a nice survey written by Lukacs and Hazai
  
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #13 - 08/31/08 at 19:02:44
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Markovich wrote on 08/31/08 at 18:26:49:
drkodos wrote on 08/31/08 at 02:28:47:
browniesbane wrote on 08/31/08 at 02:19:45:
Maybe I've got the position wrong, but doesn't Na4 have a real dodgy reputation. White responds with Ne5 and (usually Nd5 after Be7)



Perhaps.   

8. Ne5  Be7  9.Nd5 Kf8  10.Nxc5 dc  11.Nxe7 Be6 12.b3 Qe7 is shady looking but Black holds and has a booc endgame.

7. ...d6 is playable and I have also punted 7. ...Ne6 several times in this position and have done reasonably well.


I have a very extensive set of notes on the Open Defense, and I was going to consult them about 6.Re1.  Then I realized that this never comes up the way I play the Open (used to play it, actually; nowadays I mostly play 1...Nf6).  I play 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 and only after 5.d4 do I play ...a6.  I would recommend this approach to anyone.  It "treatens" the dread Berlin Wall and thus invites White to take a suboptimal path on move 4 or 5, and it also avoids the annoying Exchange Variation.  Actually I think that this plus the Berlin itself would make a very nice repertoire.


Good stuff.

One bizarre thing though is that I enjoy playing verses the exchange variation.  My lowly opinion is that White still has no real winning tries in the Qf6 line. The f6 Bg4 line is still good and the direct Bg4 line still give Black great to excellent play in which he should not be losing too often.


But, I do like this 'Berlin' move order and will perhaps give it a whirl next time I see e4.
  
I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #12 - 08/31/08 at 18:26:49
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drkodos wrote on 08/31/08 at 02:28:47:
browniesbane wrote on 08/31/08 at 02:19:45:
Maybe I've got the position wrong, but doesn't Na4 have a real dodgy reputation. White responds with Ne5 and (usually Nd5 after Be7)



Perhaps.   

8. Ne5  Be7  9.Nd5 Kf8  10.Nxc5 dc  11.Nxe7 Be6 12.b3 Qe7 is shady looking but Black holds and has a booc endgame.

7. ...d6 is playable and I have also punted 7. ...Ne6 several times in this position and have done reasonably well.


I have a very extensive set of notes on the Open Defense, and I was going to consult them about 6.Re1.  Then I realized that this never comes up the way I play the Open (used to play it, actually; nowadays I mostly play 1...Nf6).  I play 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 and only after 5.d4 do I play ...a6.  I would recommend this approach to anyone.  It "treatens" the dread Berlin Wall and thus invites White to take a suboptimal path on move 4 or 5, and it also avoids the annoying Exchange Variation.  Actually I think that this plus the Berlin itself would make a very nice repertoire.
  
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #11 - 08/31/08 at 02:28:47
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browniesbane wrote on 08/31/08 at 02:19:45:
Maybe I've got the position wrong, but doesn't Na4 have a real dodgy reputation. White responds with Ne5 and (usually Nd5 after Be7)



Perhaps.   

8. Ne5  Be7  9.Nd5 Kf8  10.Nxc5 dc  11.Nxe7 Be6 12.b3 Qe7 is shady looking but Black holds and has a booc endgame.

7. ...d6 is playable and I have also punted 7. ...Ne6 several times in this position and have done reasonably well.
  
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #10 - 08/31/08 at 02:19:45
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Maybe I've got the position wrong, but doesn't Na4 have a real dodgy reputation. White responds with Ne5 and (usually Nd5 after Be7)
  
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #9 - 08/31/08 at 01:31:31
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farg wrote on 08/30/08 at 15:19:52:
how to face this line, any better way to play for black?

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. Re1 Nc5 

7. Nc3 Be7 8. Nd5 

and what now?

i have only  8. .. e4 9. Bxc6 dxc6 10. Nxe7 Qxe7 11. d4 Nd7 12.
Bg5 f6 13. Nd2 O-O 14. Rxe4 Qf7 15. Bf4 Nb6  "with a very solid position for black" according to Flear which i translate to "it's hard to win for either side"




I might play 7. ....Nxa4 instead of Be7.

In the position w/Be7 I think I want to castle and get that King off the e-file before the rook could potentially embarrass it.

After 7. ...Be7 White also has option of clipping the c6 Knight, which is rarely discussed in any tomes, and I've seen it frequently otb that White oft grabs that Knight, but I don't think Black has any worries here.
  
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Re: 6 Re1 in the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #8 - 08/30/08 at 15:19:52
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how to face this line, any better way to play for black?

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. Re1 Nc5 

7. Nc3 Be7 8. Nd5 

and what now?

i have only  8. .. e4 9. Bxc6 dxc6 10. Nxe7 Qxe7 11. d4 Nd7 12.
Bg5 f6 13. Nd2 O-O 14. Rxe4 Qf7 15. Bf4 Nb6  "with a very solid position for black" according to Flear which i translate to "it's hard to win for either side"

  
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