Oh Bf5 ofcourse or perhaps Nf6.

Bocajaka wrote on 09/03/08 at 09:04:53:


I believe the idea is that Black goes 7...Bf5, and doesn't lose castling priviliges after 8.dxe5.

Quote:


4.d3 is probably no worse than 3...a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3.  Also no better.  4.Nc3 transposes to the Four Knights;  Black will normally have to know that anyway to play 1.e4 e5.  5.Re1 is not regarded as challenging, as far as I know.  Whether it's any better or worse than 6.Re1 in the Open Lopez I don't know.

A-Tong wrote on 08/31/08 at 21:33:08:


Yeah, I've read it.  They miss Black's best rejoinder to the idea they propose, however.

i like the a6 move order as you often get the bishop pair which allows to press against weaker players...the 8. Sc3 line is the only one which is somehow "drawish"...  Fritz likes

8. Ne5  Be7  9. Bd6 !?

is there some obvious flaw ? the move preserves the bishop pair and if white exchanges on c6 wins a tempo against the (now) somewhat useless knight on d5 which cannot exchange, if not black can develop his other bishop to b7 and just enjoy his bishops...it's just if white can get some attack going along the e-file... any expert ?

Markovich wrote on 08/31/08 at 18:26:49:


Good stuff.

One bizarre thing though is that I enjoy playing verses the exchange variation.  My lowly opinion is that White still has no real winning tries in the Qf6 line. The f6 Bg4 line is still good and the direct Bg4 line still give Black great to excellent play in which he should not be losing too often.


But, I do like this 'Berlin' move order and will perhaps give it a whirl next time I see e4.

browniesbane wrote on 08/31/08 at 02:19:45:



Perhaps.   

8. Ne5  Be7  9.Nd5 Kf8  10.Nxc5 dc  11.Nxe7 Be6 12.b3 Qe7 is shady looking but Black holds and has a booc endgame.

7. ...d6 is playable and I have also punted 7. ...Ne6 several times in this position and have done reasonably well.

farg wrote on 08/30/08 at 15:19:52:



I might play 7. ....Nxa4 instead of Be7.

In the position w/Be7 I think I want to castle and get that King off the e-file before the rook could potentially embarrass it.

After 7. ...Be7 White also has option of clipping the c6 Knight, which is rarely discussed in any tomes, and I've seen it frequently otb that White oft grabs that Knight, but I don't think Black has any worries here.

I noticed two games with this line in CB124 with White players in the 2450-2550 range, so maybe its starting to get some attention.

I mentioned elsewhere that one can avoid this line with the Berlin move order route to the open (as well as avoiding the exchange). Assuming that many of the players who play Re1 against the Open would react the same way against Ne4 in the Berlin, the obvious question is whether one would want to play the Berlin early Re1 lines versus this line.

Rice-MNb
Champions League ICCF 2007 FT1
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.Re1 Nc5 7.Bxc6 dxc6 8.Nxe5 Be7 9.d4 Ne6 10.Be3 O-O 11.c4 f6 12.Nf3 f5 13.d5 f4 14.Bc1 cxd5 15.cxd5 Nc5 16.Nc3 Bg4 17.b3 Bf6 18.Bb2 Bf5 19.Qd2 Nd3 20.Red1 Qd6 21.Ne1 Nxb2 22.Qxb2 b5 23.b4 a5 24.a3 axb4 25.axb4 Rxa1 26.Rxa1 c5

and I won. As you can see I certainly disagree with Drkodos; f7-f6-f5-f4 is essential if Black plays for a win.

Anonymous3 wrote on 08/28/08 at 04:42:09:


I think the Re1 move can frustrate Black.  It tends to lead to very even positions in which if Black pushes for a full point, (s)he will end up losing instead.  I think White can maintain a slight nagging pull, but cannot engineer enough imbalances in the position to play for the full point without Black's consent.

As Black, I am not confident in the lines in which Black loosens his position with agressive pawn pushing (f6-f5-f4) but instead prefer to keep the pawn structure solid, activate the rooks and keep white from finding any real targets.  

Re1 tends to be solidly boring chess and a good way to gain half point for Black.

farg wrote on 08/29/08 at 09:49:48:



I think best may be to kick the Knight with f6 and then play Rf7 to shield the diagonal in case White essays Qb3.  Then the black Knight can go to g5 to engineer some piece trading.

edit 2x

Anonymous3 wrote on 08/28/08 at 04:42:09:


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.Re1 Nc5 and Black's knight hits the bishop while remaining active, unlike in the Berlin where it has to go to d6 to hit the bishop.

So it seems to me that this line is unlikely to challenge Black very much.  What's your idea?