lg wrote on 01/26/10 at 13:14:48:


Yes, I also noticed the Marin game. Athough in general I'm an admirer of the Marin "brand", I suspect that 9...Re8 will prove to be  dead-end since, as waiting moves go, it is actually quite committal!

I am suspicious of it for these reasons:

a) White can continue to delay Nf3, playing sensible waiting moves (Be2, h3) which are likely to be at least as useful than Re8;

b) if Black wants to switch to ...e5 plans, then ...Re8 will be a complete waste of a tempo after dxe5, dxe5, Qxd8, Rxd8;

c) Even if  Black somehow avoids an exchange of queens on d8 after playing ...e5 (e.g. by playing ...Bd7 first), White can answer with d5 if he wants, after which the rook on e8 might well be misplaced (perhaps better on f8, supporting ...f5).

d) ...Re8 does not fit in well with the ...f5 plan, so that is another Black option that ...Re8 more or less rules out.

Therefore I would argue that ...Re8 is the opposite of flexible and its value depends entirely on White naively playing Nf3, allowing ...Bg4, when Black has gained a tempo on the 9...Bf5 line (always assuming that Re8 is useful in the "old-style" structure (Black pawn on d5, White pawns on d4 and c5).

Still, it's early days in the life of  these ideas, so let's hope we soon have some more games to study, so that any conclusions can be more concrete than the above.

Incidentally, Marin's opponent allowed ...Bg4 but did not push c4-c5:

[Event "Cto. España CECLUB 1ª División B"]
[Site "Barbera del Valles (ESP)"]
[Date "2009.08.11"]
[Round "1.1"]
[White "Almagro Llanas, Pablo"]
[Black "Marin, Mihail"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B03"]
[WhiteElo "2481"]
[BlackElo "2583"]
[PlyCount "90"]
[EventDate "2009.08.11"]
[EventRounds "3"]
[EventCountry "ESP"]
[Source "Arranz, Pablo"]
[SourceDate "2009.08.11"]
[WhiteTeam "Afronta Consultoría V. Atocha"]
[BlackTeam "Foment Martinenc"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "ESP"]
[BlackTeamCountry "ESP"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. c4 Nb6 5. exd6 cxd6 6. Nc3 g6 7. Be3 Bg7 8. Rc1
O-O 9. b3 Re8 10. Nf3 Bg4 11. Be2 d5 12. h3 Bxf3 13. Bxf3 e6 14. O-O Nc6 15.
cxd5 exd5 16. Qd3 a6 17. Na4 Nxa4 18. bxa4 Ne7 19. Qb3 b6 20. Bg5 Ra7 21. Rfe1
h6 22. Bxd5 hxg5 23. Bxf7+ Kh7 24. Bxe8 Qxe8 25. Qxb6 Qd7 26. Red1 Nd5 27. Qc6
Qf7 28. Rc5 Nf4 29. Rxg5 Bxd4 30. Kh1 Rc7 31. Qf3 Rc3 32. Qe4 Bxf2 33. Rf1 Re3
34. Qc6 Re1 35. Rxe1 Bxe1 36. Qxa6 Qe7 37. Rb5 Kh6 38. Rb1 Qe3 39. Qc8 Bc3 40.
Qg4 Nh5 41. Qf3 Qe5 42. Qf8+ Kh7 43. Qf7+ Kh6 44. Qf8+ Kh7 45. Qf7+ Kh6 1/2-1/2

I think Marin recently played the bizarre-looking 9...Re8!? if I´m not mistaken - the idea seems similar (wait for Nf3 to play ...Bg4, if not prepare some central action with ...e5)

Against the 4 Pawns I play 6...Nc6 and either 9...Be7 or 9...Qd7!? with 0-0-0.  

Against the Modern I mostly play the Flohr Variation, 4...Bg4 5.Be2 c6.  This obliges me to be prepared for positions similar those that arise from the Exchange and ...exd6.  I also prepare 4...Bg4 5.Be2 e6; 4...dxe5 5.Nxe5 g6; and 4...Nb6.  I think that the latter is the best choice if you must have the full point, and I plan to play it more often.

Against the Exchange proper I play ...cxd6.  I am not very much afraid of the Voronezh, concerning which there has been quite a bit said in other threads here, and also by Watson in his updates.  In fact, his latest update has fairly deep analysis of a key Voronezh variation, with an conclusion satisfactory to Black.  Black sometimes lacks winning chances, but he is safe enough, I opine.

Against 2.Nc3 I play 2...d5, believing that Black's game after 3.e5 Nfd7 is fully adequate.  Contrary to what TN said, this does not, in general, oblige Black to enter a Steinitz French: only after 4.d4 c5 5.Nf3 does it become necessary to go into a French, and the early Nf3 is not White's best in the Steinitz.  Of course 2...e5 is an excellent move as well.

Have to say 4 nf3 de 5 ne5 c6 must be worth considering in your repertoire- Sbort and Carlsen have played this with success. 5... nd7 is a crazy line (both sides) after 6 nf7.

The exchange system is a major  challenge - you need to be ready 5..ed is best.

TonyRo wrote on 12/03/08 at 20:23:27:


I suppose "bad" here means something like "giving White a greater chance for a slight advantage than the alternative."  That has sometimes been the reputation of 5...cd, even before the advent of the Voronezh (the Be3/Rc1/b3 thing), but isn't clear to me at any rate.  For instance, ECO, NCO and MCO don't give 5...ed as better.

One bit this brings to mind is Nakamura's seeming preference for 5...cd, with the tempo-sacrificing idea of 9...Bf5 10. Nf3 Bg4 in the Voronezh, trying to steer the game into an old familiar type of position.

Hello all,

I really like the Alekhine, and have played it on and off (not too seriously, I have to add) for as long as I've played chess. I have the Davies book, and used to have The Complete Alekhine, but got rid of it. I was just wondering what variations (specifically), you play against:

1. The Classical with Nf3 - I have always played ...Bg4 and ...e6 and followed the main lines for the most part, but people seem to think this is not a good way to play as Black.

2. The Four Pawns- I've fiddled around with everything, but I've always had a soft spot for the early ...c5 and ...e6 line, with ...exd5 and ...c4. Who knows if it's good enough though.

3. The Exchange - I've been under the impression that ...cd was bad on account of the Be3, Rc1, b3 plan, followed shortly by d5, so I've always played ...ed, but it's rather dry.

What other materials would you recommend to learn the Alekhine? I'm taking it seriously now.