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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6? (Read 219185 times)
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #56 - 01/09/09 at 14:02:58
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sloughter wrote on 01/09/09 at 02:38:56:
The response of White to 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5, 6.Be2 is a no brainer. This, according to how I define development, gains a tempo over 6.Bf1. Analysis and play with Fritz 8, now gives: 6...Nd4 7.O-O Bf5 8.d3 Qxd5 9.Nc3 Qd6 10.a4 +/=



sloughter wrote on 01/09/09 at 13:01:18:
Time for 5...Na5---This is straight out of Fritz 8's book: 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 (Nh3?? Even though Fischer played this, it is a terrible concept. Steinitz thought that because all his pawns were on their original squares, that this was desirable! As Chigorin said in this position, White has no better move in this position than Ng1! returning the Knight to its original square. How does Black win? (Bisguier wound up playing Bxh3 at some point. This is pointless. Why exchange off a great Bishop for a poorly placed Knight??)


This forum is frequented by some rather strong players and, among those who are not so very strong, some players who are at least very serious and well-informed.  You really do risk being laughed at, or worse, systematically ignored, when you post doubtful ideas with such an air of authority.

Your posts really beg for chess lessons, which I suspect not too many here are willing to hand out for free.  I applaud your sincerity and enthusiasm, but it's a little too much, really, to brand such a notable concept (of Steinitz and Fischer, no less!) with double question marks; or to claim that 6.Be2 refutes the Ulvestad based on six moves from Fritz.  

I expect you'll learn soon enough that chess isn't the easy game that you seem to think it is.
  

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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #55 - 01/09/09 at 13:01:18
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Time for 5...Na5---This is straight out of Fritz 8's book: 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 (Nh3?? Even though Fischer played this, it is a terrible concept. Steinitz thought that because all his pawns were on their original squares, that this was desirable! As Chigorin said in this position, White has no better move in this position than Ng1! returning the Knight to its original square. How does Black win? (Bisguier wound up playing Bxh3 at some point. This is pointless. Why exchange off a great Bishop for a poorly placed Knight??)

Black should ignore the Knight on h3 and just make any ten developing moves in a row in no particular order e.g. Bd6/O-O/Qc7/Nb7/Nc5/Bb7/Rfe8/Re7/Rae8, etc.)

After 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 (White loses a tempo by retreating his Knight) e4 10.Ne5 (Gaining a tempo) Bd6 11.d4! exd3 e.p (no tempo gain) 12.Nxd3 (gaining a tempo) Qc7 13.h3 (Difficult to say---is luft gaining a tempo?) We now see mostly tempo gaining moves by both sides, but just observe how little time advantage Black has a pawn down. With accurate play by White this should be winning for White, and Fritz 8 says it is.13...O-O 14.O-O Re8 15.Nd2 c5 (If this is bad, Black has real problems; the only real alternative seems to be Nb7/Nc5) 16.b3 Be5!
17.Bb2 Bxb2 18.Nxb2 (gaining three tempos as I define development)  Bb7 19.Bf3 (gaining a tempo) Rae8 20.Bxb7 Nxb7 (gaining three tempos) 21.Re1 Rxe1ch 22.Qxe1 Qe8 23.Qf1 Qf4 24.Ndc4 +/- (Fritz 8) Black has no compensation for the pawn.

The only equalizing try I can for Black after after 5...Na5 is 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 e4 10.Ne5 Bc5! 11.c3 Bd6 12.f4 Qc7 13.d4! exd3 14.Qxd3! O-O 15.O-O Rd8 16.Qc2 Nd5 17.b4 Nb7 18.Na3 Nxf4 19.Bxf4 Bxe5 20.Bxe5 Qxe5 21.Nc4 Qg5 22.Qc1! (More or less forcing an endgame due to the threat of Qf4) 22...Qxc1 23.Rfxc1

I asked GM Alburt his opinion of this endgame. He thought that White was slightly better due to his three to pawn majority on the Queenside and his superior pawn structure. This probably can be ground out to either a forced win or a forced draw. If its a draw, then White has to play 8.Qf3.

This appears to be the best that Black can do after 3...Nf6 HgMan wrote on 01/09/09 at 00:57:33:
The monkey in me says that we should track down Anonymous and get him to review the book!

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #54 - 01/09/09 at 02:38:56
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The response of White to 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5, 6.Be2 is a no brainer. This, according to how I define development, gains a tempo over 6.Bf1. Analysis and play with Fritz 8, now gives: 6...Nd4 7.O-O Bf5 8.d3 Qxd5 9.Nc3 Qd6 10.a4 +/=Antillian wrote on 01/08/09 at 12:58:58:
I have not seen such an entertaining thread since the days of Anonymous  Grin

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #53 - 01/09/09 at 02:01:11
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The basic assumption is that I will find nothing better than 5...b5 6.Bf1. 

As far as the main line and the subsequent endgame. This has to be the correct move order because almost all of White's moves gain time as I define time. 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5  Nd4 6.c3 (as we will see, this is actually a developing move; the only way it isn't is if Black plays, for example, 6...Nf5, which is probably best) b5 (a non-developing move) 7.cxd4! (You will note that White made two moves to capture a piece that had moved TWICE, thus c3 and cxd4 can be considered developing moves as I define development) 7...bxc4 (a developing move because Black captures a developed piece) 8.dxe5 (A non-developing move but justified tactically) two choices A) Nxd5 (A developing move) 9.d4! (A developing move that also threatens to protect the pawn on e5. Black cannot allow White to anchor the Knight on e5)  9...exd3 e.p. White gains a tempo with 10.Qxd3 & you will note how much better White stands compared to the incredibly bad choice 7.Bf1?? Black simply cannot allow White to reinforce the e-pawn at no cost so he must waste a tempo to capture the d-pawn B) 8...Qxd5 (A developing move) 9.exf6 (A developing move because White captured the piece) 9...Qxg5 (This gains only two tempos because the Queen accesses a square it can access in one move from d8; it has won a piece that took two moves to get to g5) 10.Qf3 (A developing move) 10...Rb8 (A developing move) 11.Qe3ch (A developing move because the Queen cannot access e3 in less than two moves) 11...Qxe3ch (A developing move because the Queen cannot get to e3 in less than two moves) 12.dxe3 (This gains three tempos because the Queen, which took two tempos to get to e3 disappears after two tempos and White freed the diagonal of his Queen Bishop.)

Now lets do a tempo count A)Bc4/Bf1 just loses two tempos. In a tactical middlegame, this is incredibly bad. Now lets look at tempo count. White makes four developing moves to get to 4.Ng5 i.e. 1.e4/2.Nf3/3.Bc4/4.Ng5 (You will note how silly it is say, "Don't move the same piece twice in the opening." If it gains time, why not?) Black responds by making four developing moves (1...e5/2...Nc6/3...Nf6/4...d5 White now picks up a pawn at the cost of only one tempo (This is why I thought that 3...Nf6 was good for White; it only costs White one tempo to win a pawn. Granted, Black can avoid losing time with 5...Nxd5 i.e. Black can make five developing moves in a row, but this loses to tactics. 6.d4 Bb4ch 7.c3 Be7 8.Nxf7ch Kxf7 9.Qf3ch Ke6 10.O-O! According to the analysis of Pincus and me, this is +-)


White has four tempo moves with 4.Ng5, two more with c3/cxd4, one more with d4 either defending e5 or forcing Black to waste a tempo to capture it and one more with Qxd3. So White, starting out with the first move advantage, wastes only one tempo to get to the final position. 

Black makes five tempo moves with his first five moves, but does not gain a tempo with b5. He gains one tempo with bxc4, but does not gain time with cxd3. So in terms of tempo count alone, Black has problems i.e. White starts out with the first move advantage and picks up a tempo in the ensuing play. All other factors being equal, a two tempo lead in development in an open position should be considered at least +/= or more likely +/- practically and +- theoretically.

In the variation 7...Qxd5, only White has winning chances. This is an endgame that every Grandmaster with White would love to play. +/- practically and +- theoretically. In other words, White has converted his first move advantage into a sizeable plus in terms of pawn structure in the endgame.

As far as 5...Na5, according to book in Fritz 8's memory, White has a clear edge in the Bd6 variation i.e. White winds up a pawn up, has the better pawn structure and a three to two pawn majority on the Queenside. Fritz 8 has this as +/-. 

The main line should be 8...Bc5. In the ensuing endgame, GM Alburt favors White slightly i.e. equal material, but White has the Queenside pawn majority and the better pawn structure. If this endgame is analyzed to a win with computer/human analysis, then 3...Nf6 4.Ng5 looks very close to +-. If Black can draw here then the following move order is suggested: 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 cxb5! 9.Qxa8 Qd7 10.Qf3 Bb7 with compensation/unclear 

The Black minors are extremely active; it is not what comes off the board, it is what stays on the board. The better player will win this position, thus tactical players like Kasparov and Judit should be happy with either side of this position; Karpov, not so happy. (I have beaten and drawn Fritz 8 in the variation with Rb8).

Time to look at 5.exd5 b5Markovich wrote on 01/08/09 at 13:34:29:
sloughter wrote on 01/08/09 at 04:27:41:
One last improvement for White and it's time to call it a Knight. Here is the refutation of the Fritz (?) 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 6.cxd4! bxc4 7.dxe5 Qxd5 8.exf6! Qxg5 9.Qf3! (Not O-O) Rb8 10.Qe3ch! Qxe3
11.dxe3 & I'll let you evaluate the endgame.


This point is debatable, but it hardly refutes the Fritz, which can be reached by 5...b5 6.Bb1 Nd4 7.c3 and so forth.  This indeed was Berliner's preferred move order.

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #52 - 01/09/09 at 00:57:33
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The monkey in me says that we should track down Anonymous and get him to review the book!
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #51 - 01/08/09 at 19:47:11
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Greetings,

drkodos wrote on 01/08/09 at 14:36:30:
Sloughter: What is your final move order?

And please, less lugubriously this time.  Just the moves would be fine.

Your prose is really stilted grammatically and it's just too tough for a lower order primate like myself to plough through the slush pile of words you insist on tacking on superfluously like so many rain drops falling from the sky that add up to little puddles of water sitting on the side of the road waiting for some innocent person with a hole in their shoe to step into and get their socks wet on the way to an important meeting on the second thursday of a January with five tuesdays during the last leap year of the millenium.

I do enjoy reading your posts, Doctor!  Grin

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #50 - 01/08/09 at 18:15:27
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sloughter wrote on 01/08/09 at 13:40:30:
Gentlement--I got off on the wrong foot. For that I apologize. I am so certain my theories are correct e.g. when I saw 12...Be6 for the first time, I almost fainted it was so bad. Within a minute, using nothing but my theories, I came up with two winning plans for White 13.Nc3 and 13.Qf2. So if you think my theories have no value, just consider that I found two winning plans for White which I would have found in a blitz game, that were missed by two World Champions for decades!


Just participate here with a little more humility, and no one will object.  Stop bragging, modestly post to the point, and you'll wind up having a good time here.   

If you actually are God's gift to chess, it will be revealed soon enough in your tournament results.
  

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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #49 - 01/08/09 at 14:36:30
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Sloughter: What is your final move order?

And please, less lugubriously this time.  Just the moves would be fine.

Your prose is really stilted grammatically and it's just too tough for a lower order primate like myself to plough through the slush pile of words you insist on tacking on superfluously like so many rain drops falling from the sky that add up to little puddles of water sitting on the side of the road waiting for some innocent person with a hole in their shoe to step into and get their socks wet on the way to an important meeting on the second thursday of a January with five tuesdays during the last leap year of the millenium.



  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #48 - 01/08/09 at 13:40:30
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Gentlement--I got off on the wrong foot. For that I apologize. I am so certain my theories are correct e.g. when I saw 12...Be6 for the first time, I almost fainted it was so bad. Within a minute, using nothing but my theories, I came up with two winning plans for White 13.Nc3 and 13.Qf2. So if you think my theories have no value, just consider that I found two winning plans for White which I would have found in a blitz game, that were missed by two World Champions for decades!

Why does the Berliner Variation lose? Because Black is required to lose two tempos in development during the course of the attack i.e e4 and the maneuver Bg4/Be6. After 12...Be6, I never even looked at book, 13.fxe4 because it loses a tempo in the middle of the attack. However, 12...O-O doesn't gain a tempo here because White keeps his extra piece, and, 13.fxe4 Bxg3 14.Kd1 gains White what can be described as a latent tempo. Sooner or later, White is going to connect his Rooks, which means that the Bishop on g3 is hanging. The only way for Black not to lose time is to win a piece on the b8/h2 diagonal (but, of course, not on the e7 square) . Thus it is just a question of how to punish Black for this waste of time. 

It took me half an hour to realize that White cannot allow a Knight in the 8...Ne6 (I should have known that this was superior to the Berliner Variation, because all of Black's moves gain time. If a Knight gets to d3, it is game over, hence the need to play 11.d4 which fails tactically) The positional bind after Nd3 cannot be broken.), variation to gain time so easily. Thus, my move Qa4 loses because, position forces me to play d4, which allows the shot Nxgech. Ke2 over Kf1 gains time but tactics here are more important than time. White may not even have equality here.

Another example of why time/tactics are important is in the variation 9.d4 exd4! This costs Black a tempo, but regains the pawn. Here are a couple of examples of time/tactics and why my theories should be deadly against a computer. If a computer blindly follows my theories, it might play 9...Bd6, so that 10.dxe5 can be met with 10...Bxe5, not realizing that the Bishop does nothing on that diagonal because of the pawn link b2/c3 completely neutralizing the power of the Bishop. The computer then might think that it can restrict White's development after Bxb5ch/Qa4/Bxd7ch/Qxd7ch/ by playing Rb8, not realizing that White has the simple refutation, b3/Bb2/Na3/Nc2/Nd4.

On the other hand, Black can gain a tempo by the following maneuver: 8.d4 exd4 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Bc4 Bc6! You will note, according to my theories (and no one else's?), Bc6 gains a tempo because the Bishop gets to a square it cannot access in less than two move. So this makes sense both in terms of time and tactics.

Going back to the beginning, in hindsight, 7.Bf1?? is incredibly bad. It wastes two tempos, absolutely guaranteeing that Black has a very powerful initiative for the pawn. Black cannot play 6.b5 here, because the tactics result in a bad position for his pawn structure i.e. if 6...b5 7.cxd4 bxc4 8.dxe5 Nxd5 (Qxd5 is even worse) 9.d4 gaining a tempo which either permits White to keep his pawn or gain more time after cxd4 e.p. 9.Qxd3 gaining a tempo. It is clear that Black is going be stuck with too many pawn islands in the endgame.

Based on this observation, Black's best move probably is to meet 6.c3 with Nf5 to avoid the loss of time.

You will note that Tony wired me after 12...O-O, because 13.Qf2 is correct positionally i.e. it gains a tempo, but loses to tactics. I was blindly following my theories, not realizing that tactics trump position after 8...Ne6. or 12...O-O.sloughter wrote on 01/08/09 at 04:27:41:
One last improvement for White and it's time to call it a Knight. Here is the refutation of the Fritz (?) 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 6.cxd4! bxc4 7.dxe5 Qxd5 8.exf6! Qxg5 9.Qf3! (Not O-O) Rb8 10.Qe3ch! Qxe3
11.dxe3 & I'll let you evaluate the endgame.HgMan wrote on 01/08/09 at 03:32:31:
Do I get to be head monkey?  I'm sure an infinite number of us, working on an infinite of chessboard, could ultimately... oh, never mind.  Must go find that opposable thumb.  I know I left it around here somewhere...


  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #47 - 01/08/09 at 13:34:29
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sloughter wrote on 01/08/09 at 04:27:41:
One last improvement for White and it's time to call it a Knight. Here is the refutation of the Fritz (?) 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 6.cxd4! bxc4 7.dxe5 Qxd5 8.exf6! Qxg5 9.Qf3! (Not O-O) Rb8 10.Qe3ch! Qxe3
11.dxe3 & I'll let you evaluate the endgame.


This point is debatable, but it hardly refutes the Fritz, which can be reached by 5...b5 6.Bb1 Nd4 7.c3 and so forth.  This indeed was Berliner's preferred move order.
  

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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #46 - 01/08/09 at 12:58:58
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I have not seen such an entertaining thread since the days of Anonymous  Grin
  

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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #45 - 01/08/09 at 04:27:41
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One last improvement for White and it's time to call it a Knight. Here is the refutation of the Fritz (?) 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 6.cxd4! bxc4 7.dxe5 Qxd5 8.exf6! Qxg5 9.Qf3! (Not O-O) Rb8 10.Qe3ch! Qxe3
11.dxe3 & I'll let you evaluate the endgame.HgMan wrote on 01/08/09 at 03:32:31:
Do I get to be head monkey?  I'm sure an infinite number of us, working on an infinite of chessboard, could ultimately... oh, never mind.  Must go find that opposable thumb.  I know I left it around here somewhere...

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #44 - 01/08/09 at 03:52:00
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By the way---the Berliner Variation has to be a blunder because White gets way too much advantage i.e. there is no way this is best play for Black. Your 8...Ne6 is a vast improvement over the Berliner Variation (which silly me I thought was best for Black because Kasparov devotes so much analysis to it) and one that would probably take a 100 moves to win with best play by both sides. If this doesn't work, I'll have to go back to the line quoted earlier i.e. 8.cxd4 It may be necessary to strip this variation back move by move until the truth emerges. HgMan wrote on 01/08/09 at 03:32:31:
Do I get to be head monkey?  I'm sure an infinite number of us, working on an infinite of chessboard, could ultimately... oh, never mind.  Must go find that opposable thumb.  I know I left it around here somewhere...

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #43 - 01/08/09 at 03:32:31
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Do I get to be head monkey?  I'm sure an infinite number of us, working on an infinite of chessboard, could ultimately... oh, never mind.  Must go find that opposable thumb.  I know I left it around here somewhere...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #42 - 01/08/09 at 02:52:11
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Fair enough. I apologize to the monkeys Smiley

Here is what I mean by 8...Ne6 being a trial and error position for me. Clearly, in hindsight, 9.Bxb5ch is a blunder because a Knight winds up on d3 so White must improve earlier. In hindsight White's correct move is "obvious" 

8...Ne6 9.d4! The ball is in your court.MNb wrote on 01/08/09 at 02:02:47:
Let's make a deal. You take back that monkey brain nonsense - the modify button is very handy - and I'll delete my last post and give you a serious reaction on 11.0-0/12.b3. You have 22 hours.

  
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