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Markovich
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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #12 - 09/11/09 at 19:10:59
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So 9.Ke2 loses but 9.Kf1 still draws, it appears, at least if 9...Qh4 is played.
  
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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #11 - 09/11/09 at 16:23:53
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Paul Cumbers and Feb are right: 16...Qf7! seems to win.

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This position could have gotten onthe board if Hebden had played 
16...Qf7! rather than 16....Qxc8 against Bergez. (S.Giddens didnt comment on Black's 16th move)

Black threatens 17...Qf2+ 18.Kh3,Q/Rh4# 
If have yet to find a satisfactory defence for white.

A key line is
17.Ne7+, (17.Qd2, h5! 18 h4,Qf6-/+ Feb/Cumbers) Qxe7 18.h4 (18.h3,Qd6+ with mate to follow) Qf6
19.Bg5, Qe5+ 20.Kh3,h6! 21.Bd2,g5!!

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Black threatens both 22...Rxh4## and 22....g4+
  
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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #10 - 09/08/09 at 16:25:20
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here is the NJ forum you mentioned http://njscf.proboards.com/index.cgi?

they regularly have good analysis on lines like this.
  
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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #9 - 09/07/09 at 17:28:50
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OstapBender wrote on 12/30/08 at 20:09:19:
I just ran across an entertaining game played between Bergez and Hebden in the 2nd round of this year's Hastings tournament.  Light comentary by Steve Giddins can be found at http://www.hastingschess.org.uk/2009/commentary.htm

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Bc5 8.Nxc6 Bxf2+ 9.Ke2 Qd7 10.e6 fxe6 11.Nxa7 c6 12.Nxc8 cxb5 13.Nd2 Ra4 14.Nxe4 Rxe4+ 15.Kxf2 0–0+ 16.Kg3

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16...Qxc8 17. Kh3 Qc4 18. g3 Rf2 19. Re1 Rd4 20. Qh5 Re4 21. Be3 Rf5 22. Qe8+ Rf8 23. Qe7 Qc8 24. c3 d4 25. cxd4 e5+ 26. Kg2 Qc2+ 27. Kh1 exd4 28. Bxd4 Rxe7 29. Rxe7 Qc6+ 30. Kg1 Rf7 31. Rxf7 Kxf7 32. a3 Qd5 33. Rf1+ Kg8 34. Bc3 g5 35. g4 Qd3 36. Re1 Qf3 37. Re5 Qxg4+ 38. Kh1 h6 39. Re1 Kf7 40. Re3 Qf4 41. Re1 Qf2 42. Rg1 Kg6 43. Rg2 Qf1+ 44. Rg1 Qf3+ 45. Rg2 h5 46. Bd2 Qd1+ 0-1

A similar line, with 9.Kf1 instead of 9.Ke2 played in the game above, known as the Kaidanz Variation is (was?) more commonly played.  9.Kf1 has also been discussed in detail by Nunn (see the game Corden-Nunn in the book Secrets of Grandmaster Play) and was the subject of an excellent Hard Chess column (which can be found here) written by Mark Morss (ChessPub's Markovich).

Of course the game's outcome, by itself, would not suggest that 9.Ke2 is an improvement over 9.Kf1.  Maybe it's unclear, but Black seems to have very good compensation for the sacrificed piece in the diagrammed position.  White might be able to improve on 11.Nxa7, however.  Any opinions or relevant theory on whether the newer 9.Ke2 is superior to older 9.Kf1?

Later found some mention of 9.Ke2 in a thread from 4 years ago where Feb suggests 11.Bd3 is White's best and that the game line 11.Nxa7 c6 12.Nxc8 cxb5 13.Nd2 Ra4 favors Black.
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1091218196/9#9

In the above position, even stronger than 16...Qxc8 is 16...Qf7! which seems to be clearly winning for Black  Shocked. This move was given by feb on the N.J.Chess forum in 2004 (the link I have doesn't work anymore), with the example "17.Qd2 h5 18.h4 Qf6 -+".
  
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MNb
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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #8 - 01/11/09 at 20:48:16
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This is worth investigating indeed. The only move that has done well for White is 11.Qd3 and it can be met with Qh4 12.Bxa8 Bd4 13.Be3 Nc5 14.Qxd4 Ba6 -+.
  
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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #7 - 01/10/09 at 02:50:31
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Markovich wrote on 01/07/09 at 15:10:08:
Just saw this.  Thanks for the info, Ostap.

So far as I know, White's one way to draw after permitting Bxf2+ is to play Kf1 then Nxa7, Nxc8, as demonstrated in Emms.  Kaidanz claimed Black advantage there, based on some funny stuff that doesn't stand up to computer analysis.

I must admit that the absence of a forced win for Black is frustrating for me, since Black has to do a fair amount of study to be able to play this line.


Worth considering for Black might be: 9.Kf1 bxc6 10.Bxc6+ Kf8 

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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #6 - 01/10/09 at 01:07:03
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I was worried for a while that I was just spamming you all with an already covered topic, and I'd stopped checking for replies.  Glad this wasn't the case.

The suggestion that 9...Bg4+! is much better than 9...Qd7?! is very enlightening in view of Giddins annotation of the Bergez-Hebden gave where he gives 9...Qd7! with the comment:

Quote:
Hebden's improvement on 9...Bg4+ 10.Kf1 Qh4?, which he played against Jonathan Arnott, in the British QP a few years ago.


Thanks for the replies!  I've always liked this particular Two Knights line and you've provided some good food for thought.
  
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MNb
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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #5 - 01/09/09 at 21:43:59
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Thanks. Black might try 14...0-0, but then there is 14.Qd1 with even a quicker repetitition.
  
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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #4 - 01/08/09 at 14:20:36
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".... a forced draw after 9.Kh1 Qh4 10.Nxa7+ c6 11.Nxc8 Rxc8 ? How does it go then? "

12 Be2 Bd4  13. Qe1 Bf2  14. Qa5 Bd4  15. Qe1 

And both sides are best to take draw by repetition, according to: Emms  p.183  Play the Open Games as Black
  
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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #3 - 01/08/09 at 13:36:46
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MNb wrote on 01/08/09 at 03:28:54:
Sorry for my late reaction - I simply had forgotten about your question and then found my notes in disarray. A few years ago - and iIrc I posted it somewhere on this forum - I have managed to refute 9.Ke2 with Bg4+! (much better than Qd7?!) 10.Kf1 (you don't trust 10.Kd3, do you?) Qh4 11.Qxd5 Arnott-Hebden, Halifax 2003, Bb6! 12.Nd4+ c6 13.Bxc6+ bxc6 14.Qxc6+ Bd7 15.Qxa8 Ke7 0-1. If you recognize this, it is the same as 9.Kf1 Qh4 10.Qxd5 Bb6. At the moment I do not remember what exactly was the difference with Markovich' 10...Bc5.

Markovich, do you mean a forced draw after 9.Kh1 Qh4 10.Nxa7+ c6 11.Nxc8 Rxc8 ? How does it go then?


It's in Emms, which I don't have in hand just now.  Tonight I'll try to remember to post it here.
  
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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #2 - 01/08/09 at 03:28:54
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Sorry for my late reaction - I simply had forgotten about your question and then found my notes in disarray. A few years ago - and iIrc I posted it somewhere on this forum - I have managed to refute 9.Ke2 with Bg4+! (much better than Qd7?!) 10.Kf1 (you don't trust 10.Kd3, do you?) Qh4 11.Qxd5 Arnott-Hebden, Halifax 2003, Bb6! 12.Nd4+ c6 13.Bxc6+ bxc6 14.Qxc6+ Bd7 15.Qxa8 Ke7 0-1. If you recognize this, it is the same as 9.Kf1 Qh4 10.Qxd5 Bb6. At the moment I do not remember what exactly was the difference with Markovich' 10...Bc5.

Markovich, do you mean a forced draw after 9.Kh1 Qh4 10.Nxa7+ c6 11.Nxc8 Rxc8 ? How does it go then?
  
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Markovich
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Re: Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
Reply #1 - 01/07/09 at 15:10:08
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Just saw this.  Thanks for the info, Ostap.

So far as I know, White's one way to draw after permitting Bxf2+ is to play Kf1 then Nxa7, Nxc8, as demonstrated in Emms.  Kaidanz claimed Black advantage there, based on some funny stuff that doesn't stand up to computer analysis.

I must admit that the absence of a forced win for Black is frustrating for me, since Black has to do a fair amount of study to be able to play this line.
« Last Edit: 01/08/09 at 13:37:45 by Markovich »  
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Kaidanz Variation of 2N Modern - A New Wrinkle?
12/30/08 at 20:09:19
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I just ran across an entertaining game played between Bergez and Hebden in the 2nd round of this year's Hastings tournament.  Light comentary by Steve Giddins can be found at http://www.hastingschess.org.uk/2009/commentary.htm

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Bc5 8.Nxc6 Bxf2+ 9.Ke2 Qd7 10.e6 fxe6 11.Nxa7 c6 12.Nxc8 cxb5 13.Nd2 Ra4 14.Nxe4 Rxe4+ 15.Kxf2 0–0+ 16.Kg3

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16...Qxc8 17. Kh3 Qc4 18. g3 Rf2 19. Re1 Rd4 20. Qh5 Re4 21. Be3 Rf5 22. Qe8+ Rf8 23. Qe7 Qc8 24. c3 d4 25. cxd4 e5+ 26. Kg2 Qc2+ 27. Kh1 exd4 28. Bxd4 Rxe7 29. Rxe7 Qc6+ 30. Kg1 Rf7 31. Rxf7 Kxf7 32. a3 Qd5 33. Rf1+ Kg8 34. Bc3 g5 35. g4 Qd3 36. Re1 Qf3 37. Re5 Qxg4+ 38. Kh1 h6 39. Re1 Kf7 40. Re3 Qf4 41. Re1 Qf2 42. Rg1 Kg6 43. Rg2 Qf1+ 44. Rg1 Qf3+ 45. Rg2 h5 46. Bd2 Qd1+ 0-1

A similar line, with 9.Kf1 instead of 9.Ke2 played in the game above, known as the Kaidanz Variation is (was?) more commonly played.  9.Kf1 has also been discussed in detail by Nunn (see the game Corden-Nunn in the book Secrets of Grandmaster Play) and was the subject of an excellent Hard Chess column (which can be found here) written by Mark Morss (ChessPub's Markovich).

Of course the game's outcome, by itself, would not suggest that 9.Ke2 is an improvement over 9.Kf1.  Maybe it's unclear, but Black seems to have very good compensation for the sacrificed piece in the diagrammed position.  White might be able to improve on 11.Nxa7, however.  Any opinions or relevant theory on whether the newer 9.Ke2 is superior to older 9.Kf1?

Later found some mention of 9.Ke2 in a thread from 4 years ago where Feb suggests 11.Bd3 is White's best and that the game line 11.Nxa7 c6 12.Nxc8 cxb5 13.Nd2 Ra4 favors Black.
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1091218196/9#9
« Last Edit: 12/31/08 at 10:49:55 by OstapBender »  
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