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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit (Read 182191 times)
Uruk
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #107 - 02/25/09 at 23:02:27
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Also possible 6...Bg6 here.

Black has more chances than in 5.Ne4, I think.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #106 - 02/25/09 at 22:33:17
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Good question.  I believe the main line after 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 is 6.Ne5, followed by g4 and Bg2.  Or perhaps, taking cues from Stefan Buecker's line of the Soller, simply 6.Bd3!? Bxd3 7.Qxd3 and again White is a tempo up on that line.
  
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Uruk
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #105 - 02/25/09 at 22:18:12
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A question: if you intend 4...c6 5.Bc4 ef3 6.Nf3 Bf5,
why not play the order 4...ef3 5.Nf3 Bf5 6.Bc4 when you have the choice between
...c6 (transposing) and ...e6 (which seems more useful) ?

It also avoids the equalizer 5.Ne4:
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #104 - 02/25/09 at 22:03:42
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After 4...c6, how about 5.Bg5?  The potential pin on the f6-knight hinders Black's ...e5 ideas that are annoying for White in many other lines.

Some sample possibilities:
A.  5...Bf5 6.Bxf6 (else White ends up a pawn down for not much) 6...exf6 7.fxe4 Be6 8.Qd2 Bb4 9.Nf3 with roughly equal chances.  Black has slightly better development but I like White's two-pawn centre.

B.  5...h6 6.Bxf6 exf6 7.fxe4 with similar lines to variation A.

C.  5...exf3 6.Nxf3, followed by developing the bishop to d3, transposing to lines stemming from 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bd3 Bg4, which arguably offers White more than 6.Bc4 Bf5.  Instead 6...Bf5 is probably not best in view of 7.Bd3!? Bxd3 8.Qxd3, when White has a useful extra tempo (Bc1-g5) on the Bf1-c4-d3 line mentioned above.  

In all of the above lines Fritz 10 likes ...Qb6 for Black, intending ...Qxb2, but in all cases White can prevent the capture on b2 with a2-a3, or make a Poisoned-Pawn style gambit of it with Qd2, Qxb2, Rb1, Qa3 which leads to very messy situations.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #103 - 02/25/09 at 19:57:08
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I've read the 4...c6! thread. Interestingly, c6 was called "cowardice". In my comment after 4...c6 in Kaissiber 5 (1998), I actually asked: Is Black a coward? and after explaining the strategy behind the move, I continued: ...so I am not a coward, only cautious. 
When I discussed 4...c6! with Volker Hergert and Volker Drüke in 1986, 5. Nxe4 Nxe4 6.fxe4 e5 7. Nf3 exd4 seemed frustrating for White. - Regarding 5. Bc4 exf3 6. Nxf3 Bf5, I felt that White should perhaps try 7. Bd3 Bxd3 8. Qxd3, when his compensation may not be fully sufficient, but at least he has some activity and the open files. 
At that time I was writing the book on the Englund Gambit, and the Soller Gambit offered a (small) chance to reach the same position, with the bishop going from f8 to d6, instead of Bf1-c4-d3! I was willing to accept the line as a lesser evil for Black. Of course it is another question whether you'd like to have it as White.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #102 - 02/25/09 at 19:31:03
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Yes, apologies for the mix-up!  The first move-order is 5...Nxe4 6.fxe4 e5 7.Nf3 (certainly not 7.Bc4 Qh4+) 7...exd4 8.Bc4, and while it might be an improved version for Black, I think White still has at least enough compensation for the pawn.

Instead 5...Nbd7 is about equal IMO, e.g. 6.Qd3 e6 7.Bf4 Nxe4 8.fxe4 e5.

But in any case I can't find a good continuation against 5...e5.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #101 - 02/25/09 at 19:17:51
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/25/09 at 18:53:07:
The line Stefan recommends- 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6, has been debated on quite a few other threads.  I personally think 5.Nxe4 is good enough for equality- for instance 5...Nxe4 6.fxe4 exd4 7.Bc4, or 5...Bf5 6.Nxf6+ followed by 7.Bd3 and Black cannot win the pawn on d4.  However, there is a snag in 5...e5!?, when I can find nothing better for White than 6.Nxf6+ (I'm not totally convinced by the gambit 6.Bg5 exd4 7.c3 Be7) Qxf6 7.dxe5 Qxe5+ 8.Qe2, and a barren ending results. 


Instead, 5.Bc4 is the usual response but I doubt that it gives full compensation.  5...exf3 (5...b5!?- Bacrot) 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.Bg5 (7.Ne5 e6 8.0-0 Bg6! =+) 7...e6 8.Qe2 works fine against 8...Be7 (9.0-0-0 and 10.Rhf1) but I can't find anything convincing against 8...Bb4!.  Perhaps White might be able to find something after 9.a3 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 Nbd7 11.0-0 0-0.


Ah, a 4...Nf6 Caro where White plays 5. f3.

White isn't worried about 7...Qh4+ or 7...Qxd4 after 7. Bc4? (I'm assuming Black's 6th move is supposed to be ...e5.)

If 7. Nf3 instead, surely the exchange of Black's king knight for White's queen knight gives Black an improved Fantasy?

There's also the possiblity of 5...Nbd7 (which looks like a 4...Nd7 Caro met by 5. f3) ...
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #100 - 02/25/09 at 18:53:07
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The line Stefan recommends- 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6, has been debated on quite a few other threads.  I personally think 5.Nxe4 is good enough for equality- for instance 5...Nxe4 6.fxe4 exd4 7.Bc4, or 5...Bf5 6.Nxf6+ followed by 7.Bd3 and Black cannot win the pawn on d4.  However, there is a snag in 5...e5!?, when I can find nothing better for White than 6.Nxf6+ (I'm not totally convinced by the gambit 6.Bg5 exd4 7.c3 Be7) Qxf6 7.dxe5 Qxe5+ 8.Qe2, and a barren ending results. 

Instead, 5.Bc4 is the usual response but I doubt that it gives full compensation.  5...exf3 (5...b5!?- Bacrot) 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.Bg5 (7.Ne5 e6 8.0-0 Bg6! =+) 7...e6 8.Qe2 works fine against 8...Be7 (9.0-0-0 and 10.Rhf1) but I can't find anything convincing against 8...Bb4!.  Perhaps White might be able to find something after 9.a3 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 Nbd7 11.0-0 0-0.
  
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Uruk
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #99 - 02/25/09 at 18:28:22
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Maybe with 13...Nb6 14.g6 f6 15.Re3 Qe7 16.Qe2 Kd7!?
or 14.Nge2 Qd7!?

though it's not much.

Maybe the gambit is playable after all.
  
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Uruk
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #98 - 02/25/09 at 16:22:56
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Well, if you don't play d5, I will castle and slowly consolidate.
The Rh7 defends f7 in the meantime, it will reactivate later when I have a knight on f5.
My plan is to win the h4-pawn on move 60.

But the immediate d5 works, true.
On 13...Nf5 14.Qe2 g6, d5 again bails out.
Not so simple...
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #97 - 02/25/09 at 15:59:31
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Sounds fair, but in your picture, who has the white squares? 13...g6 14.d5!? cxd5 (14...Nc5 15.dxe6 Nxd3+ 16.Qxd3) 15.Nxd5 exd5 16.Qxd5 +=. Btw, in your 14. Be5 Rh7 what will Black's extra pawn f7 do for the rest of the game? Whenever it moves, the resulting weaknesses after gxf6 will more than compensate the pawn deficit. Not to speak about the Rh7...
  
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Uruk
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #96 - 02/25/09 at 15:42:18
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My first reaction is to play just 13...g6 from the diagram.
On 14.Fe5 Rh7, Fischer style.

Dark squares vs light squares, who will prevail ?
I still have my dark-squared bishop tho  Wink
  
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Uruk
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #95 - 02/25/09 at 15:00:57
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The cleverness of your 13.Rd3: is that on the variation I mentioned above,
13...Qa5 14.g6 f6 15.Re3 0-0-0 16.Re6:
...Qf5 does not work anymore.

The queen is on f3 instead of d3 and protects the bishop, allowing 17.Rd6:
Clever. I will look at it.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #94 - 02/25/09 at 14:26:40
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 (3...f5!?; 3...Bf5!?) 4.f3 Bf5 (4...c6!) 5.fxe4 Nxe4 6.Qf3 Nd6 7.Bf4 e6 8.0-0-0 Nd7 9.g4 Bg6 10.h4 h5 11.g5 c6 12.Bd3

Uruk wrote on 02/24/09 at 22:22:51:
Exchange light-squareds before landing on f5,
12...Bd3: 13.Qd3: Qa5
An illustration 14.g6? f6 15.Re1 0-0-0 16.Re6: Qf5! white pawns are all weak.


13. Rxd3! seems stronger (than 13. Qxd3).

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In the BDG building up pressure on the f-file is one of the key ideas. The Rd3 might even participate in this plan, in some lines it could move to f3 or g3. If 13...Nf5 14.Qe2 intending g5-g6, or if Black plays g6 himself, the square f6 becomes weak. 

###

My BDG articles (Kaissiber 5 & 8) claimed that the traditional lines after 4...exf3 give White enough for the pawn, and there were many positions where I'd like to be White. But 3...f5 and 3...Bf5 (Morlo) were problematic, and since 1986 I believe that 3...Nf6 4.f3 c6! is the hardest nut for White to crack. 

Regarding another point in this thread, that it were better if young players would not learn the BDG. Here I am not so sure. Many creative players started with the King's Gambit (Steinitz, Tartakower [who later invented the BDG, by the way, so perhaps it should have rather be called the BTG], Reti, Larsen come to mind - and, of course, E. J. Diemer himself), later they changed their repertoire and preferred serious openings (OK, with one exception). I don't think that enjoying tactics in your younger years is a mistake, rather the opposite.  

Look at the great masters: Young Emanuel Lasker played 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4 (? Kasparow: "Every schoolboy knows...") 4. dxe5 Nd7!?. And the young Capablanca even used the most irregular opening of his time: the Caro-Kann Defense...
« Last Edit: 02/25/09 at 16:03:07 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Uruk
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #93 - 02/25/09 at 00:00:29
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How exactly is 7.Nh3 better than Flude's 7.Ne2,
...Nc6 attacks d4 so no Nf4 for the moment.

As for 6.g5 Nd5 7.Nxe4, to regain the pawn that way is reckoning failure:
4.f3 (only good move) was to speed up development and there you're left with a pawn on f3, another on g5...  Cheesy

From what I've seen the mess is on one side!

I'm an active player and wouldn't play ...c6 unless forced. I could play my Knight there and attack d4!
Also I'd rather not develop my opponent with ...exf3, that's his dream.
  
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