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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39: Wild, wacky counters to King's Gambit (Read 32891 times)
MNb
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #32 - 03/06/09 at 20:26:11
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Willempie wrote on 03/06/09 at 13:17:21:
Schaakhamster wrote on 03/06/09 at 05:31:16:
Let's be honest: 2 ... d6 is ussual played by weaker players. When I would play the KG and my opponent would play that I would be very happy. I would assume he doesn't know the opening. 

I wouldnt assume that, 2..d6 is quite decent (played without ..f5 that is about which I will not give my opinion).  Maybe not as good as the main lines, but imo still enough for equality. You often get doubled e-pawns, but there not really a liability as it stops all white's attacking ideas.


Giving Black those doubled e-pawns is usually a strategical mistake. After 2...d6 the exchange fxe5 is also a strategical mistake. At last if White knows to deal with the pin ...Bg4 (threatening ...Nd4) (s)he can be sure of a very nice and clear advantage. Claiming equality shows unjustified optimism.

Of course I am not talking about 2...d6 3.Nf3 exf4 and 2...d6/3...f5, though I don't really trust that one either.
  
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Bibs
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #31 - 03/06/09 at 15:02:36
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Hadron wrote on 03/06/09 at 04:44:55:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/02/09 at 00:01:52:
Hadron wrote on 03/01/09 at 23:32:22:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/01/09 at 05:26:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.d4 exd4 shouldn't be dangerous.

Maybe not. However 99% of people who issue forth 2....d6 don't intend the f5 follow up. Even if you strike the 1 % who do then 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5 4.Bc4 looks good for White.
HTH
Angry


1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5 was the line recommended by the Danish theoretician Orla Herman Krause. One of his lines in "Tidskrift för Schack", April issue 1908, was 4.Bc4 fxe4 5.Nxe5 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qh3 7.Bf1 Qe6, draw. In Kaissiber #25 (2006), Benoit Taddei (France) analyzed instead 5...Nh6 with interesting complications. These 99% which you mention are perhaps not the strongest...

I don't know if I should be insulted or not?...I play weak players?..You assume way to much...either in the importance of who you are or what ability you have...or just how bad I may or may not be...either way such things are a fools errand. I have never under estimate ANYONE, the day you do is the day you get 'be-aytched' slapped. Mind you if I was titled player, I could always claim they cheated of course...
I would wish you some regards....but if you want to assume I am some dullard with out even know me....I don't care for you or anything you think. Lesson one in life, respect is a two way street.
HTH
Angry


Impossible to see how you could have taken offence. 
In answer to your question - no you shouldn't feel insulted.
An odd, rude reaction. How peculiar. 
Are you in Lev Gambit's high school class?
  
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Willempie
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #30 - 03/06/09 at 13:17:21
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Schaakhamster wrote on 03/06/09 at 05:31:16:
Let's be honest: 2 ... d6 is ussual played by weaker players. When I would play the KG and my opponent would play that I would be very happy. I would assume he doesn't know the opening. 

I wouldnt assume that, 2..d6 is quite decent (played without ..f5 that is about which I will not give my opinion).  Maybe not as good as the main lines, but imo still enough for equality. You often get doubled e-pawns, but there not really a liability as it stops all white's attacking ideas.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Schaakhamster
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #29 - 03/06/09 at 05:31:16
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Hadron wrote on 03/06/09 at 04:44:55:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/02/09 at 00:01:52:
Hadron wrote on 03/01/09 at 23:32:22:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/01/09 at 05:26:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.d4 exd4 shouldn't be dangerous.

Maybe not. However 99% of people who issue forth 2....d6 don't intend the f5 follow up. Even if you strike the 1 % who do then 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5 4.Bc4 looks good for White.
HTH
Angry


1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5 was the line recommended by the Danish theoretician Orla Herman Krause. One of his lines in "Tidskrift för Schack", April issue 1908, was 4.Bc4 fxe4 5.Nxe5 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qh3 7.Bf1 Qe6, draw. In Kaissiber #25 (2006), Benoit Taddei (France) analyzed instead 5...Nh6 with interesting complications. These 99% which you mention are perhaps not the strongest...

I don't know if I should be insulted or not?...I play weak players?..You assume way to much...either in the importance of who you are or what ability you have...or just how bad I may or may not be...either way such things are a fools errand. I have never under estimate ANYONE, the day you do is the day you get 'be-aytched' slapped. Mind you if I was titled player, I could always claim they cheated of course...
I would wish you some regards....but if you want to assume I am some dullard with out even know me....I don't care for you or anything you think. Lesson one in life, respect is a two way street.
HTH
Angry


you really should look up who Stefan Buecker is. Perhaps then some modesty would be in order. We all should be glad he is willing to discuss openings here. 

Let's be honest: 2 ... d6 is ussual played by weaker players. When I would play the KG and my opponent would play that I would be very happy. I would assume he doesn't know the opening. 


  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #28 - 03/06/09 at 04:52:43
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All I wanted to say was that 2...d6 3.Nf3 f5 is a system that was invented and strongly recommended by the Danish theoretician, Orla Herman Krause. His articles still deserve attention. Of course there are many players who don't read and just play 2...d6 without following a consistent plan, but shouldn't White rather prepare for the 1 percent that might have actually studied the opening?
  
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #27 - 03/06/09 at 04:44:55
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/02/09 at 00:01:52:
Hadron wrote on 03/01/09 at 23:32:22:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/01/09 at 05:26:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.d4 exd4 shouldn't be dangerous.

Maybe not. However 99% of people who issue forth 2....d6 don't intend the f5 follow up. Even if you strike the 1 % who do then 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5 4.Bc4 looks good for White.
HTH
Angry


1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5 was the line recommended by the Danish theoretician Orla Herman Krause. One of his lines in "Tidskrift för Schack", April issue 1908, was 4.Bc4 fxe4 5.Nxe5 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qh3 7.Bf1 Qe6, draw. In Kaissiber #25 (2006), Benoit Taddei (France) analyzed instead 5...Nh6 with interesting complications. These 99% which you mention are perhaps not the strongest...

I don't know if I should be insulted or not?...I play weak players?..You assume way to much...either in the importance of who you are or what ability you have...or just how bad I may or may not be...either way such things are a fools errand. I have never under estimate ANYONE, the day you do is the day you get 'be-aytched' slapped. Mind you if I was titled player, I could always claim they cheated of course...
I would wish you some regards....but if you want to assume I am some dullard with out even know me....I don't care for you or anything you think. Lesson one in life, respect is a two way street.
HTH
Angry
  
I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #26 - 03/03/09 at 06:01:36
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Nimzo Counter Gambit!! 

Ok, not as good as 2..exf4 winning a pawn.  This loses one instead.
But many Whites get confused and don't like having the shoe on the other foot.  For speed chess only.
  
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #25 - 03/03/09 at 02:25:09
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My very first game of rated chess, played when I was a teenager, went 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.fxe5 Qh5+ 4.Ke2 Qxe4+ 5.Kf2 dxe4 and so forth.  I am sorry to admit that I was White.  My opponent was my Columbus chessfriend, Harry Greiner, someone that I usually defeated easily.  Harry, who was about 25 years older than I, was a podiatrist.  But I had success in later rounds and emerged with a rating in the 1500's, not too bad for an ignorant first timer.
  
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #24 - 03/02/09 at 23:51:05
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/02/09 at 00:01:52:
Hadron wrote on 03/01/09 at 23:32:22:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/01/09 at 05:26:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.d4 exd4 shouldn't be dangerous.

Maybe not. However 99% of people who issue forth 2....d6 don't intend the f5 follow up. Even if you strike the 1 % who do then 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5 4.Bc4 looks good for White.
HTH
Angry


1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5 was the line recommended by the Danish theoretician Orla Herman Krause. One of his lines in "Tidskrift för Schack", April issue 1908, was 4.Bc4 fxe4 5.Nxe5 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qh3 7.Bf1 Qe6, draw. In Kaissiber #25 (2006), Benoit Taddei (France) analyzed instead 5...Nh6 with interesting complications. These 99% which you mention are perhaps not the strongest...


If 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 play 3.Nc3 Then Black has nothing better than 3...exf4 4.Nf3 transposing to the Fischer defence.

Greco's 2...f5 is refuted by 3.exf5.

What does it mean "wild, wacky"?
I don't understand the urge to present the most illogical or silly moves, attach strange names to give them substance and then fill these pages, so I will suggest 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Qg5  Wink
On a more serious level:
I once had 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Bc5 4.Nf3 exf4 5.d4 Nxd4! a la the variation David Flude mentioned.
Or 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 Bc5!? (I think Tony Miles invented this)
If you want something sneaky, play 2...c6 3.Nf3 d5. Of course White should again prefer 3.Nc3!
  
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #23 - 03/02/09 at 00:49:54
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I've played the Wagenbach a few times and have found it to be an effective way to take white out of their comfort zone very early.  I remember reading an excellent article in the old Chess Mail a few years ago which covered this variation and have yet to see it even mentioned in any books.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 h5!?
  
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #22 - 03/02/09 at 00:01:52
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Hadron wrote on 03/01/09 at 23:32:22:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/01/09 at 05:26:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.d4 exd4 shouldn't be dangerous.

Maybe not. However 99% of people who issue forth 2....d6 don't intend the f5 follow up. Even if you strike the 1 % who do then 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5 4.Bc4 looks good for White.
HTH
Angry


1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5 was the line recommended by the Danish theoretician Orla Herman Krause. One of his lines in "Tidskrift för Schack", April issue 1908, was 4.Bc4 fxe4 5.Nxe5 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qh3 7.Bf1 Qe6, draw. In Kaissiber #25 (2006), Benoit Taddei (France) analyzed instead 5...Nh6 with interesting complications. These 99% which you mention are perhaps not the strongest...
  
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #21 - 03/01/09 at 23:32:22
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/01/09 at 05:26:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.d4 exd4 shouldn't be dangerous.

Maybe not. However 99% of people who issue forth 2....d6 don't intend the f5 follow up. Even if you strike the 1 % who do then 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5 4.Bc4 looks good for White.
HTH
Angry
  
I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #20 - 03/01/09 at 12:04:52
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That's not a problem, because I think White has += after 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 at least while 3.Nf3 d6 4.c3 is equal at best (Bb6).
  
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #19 - 03/01/09 at 10:45:11
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MNb wrote on 02/26/09 at 20:37:56:
I am one of them.

TimS wrote on 02/26/09 at 11:03:05:
One line worth investigating, and not just as a surprise weapon, is a Delayed Falkbeer, viz:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 d5!?


Since Thomas Johansson's excellent book most white players know that this can be avoided with 3.Nc3 and that is what I would play.


The problem with 3.Nc3 is that after 3...d6 4.Nf3 the game has transposed to the main declined line that arises after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6, and now White normally has a choice between the solid 4.Nc3 and the more tactical 4.c3. By playing 3.Nc3, the King's Gambit player is deprived of the more tactical line! Having said that, my score against 3.Nc3 is "only" +2 =0 -2, whereas my score with 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 d5!? is +24 =11 -16.
  
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Re: WILD, WACKY COUNTERS  TO KING'S GAMBIT
Reply #18 - 03/01/09 at 05:57:47
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1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 or 4.Bc4 can become wild and wacky if White is willing to sacrifice more material.
  
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