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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player (Read 17674 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #6 - 07/19/09 at 01:37:12
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I'm rated about 2175 USCF, and play mostly people in the 1900-2350 range, so take that into account with my following comments.

While I'm a life-long 1.d4 player, I have the same problem of finding an edge against the Grunfeld.  Fortunately, I face it over the board very rarely.  I also play 4.Bg5 sometimes, but I don't think it's that great.

The variation that I have scored best with is 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7.Nf3, because most opponents actually now play 7...0-0?!, which is certainly dubious because White can play 8.Be2! instead of 8.Rb1.  There is some nice analysis on this in Yermolinsky's book The Road to Chess Improvement.  Basically, compare the position after 7.Nf3 0-0?! 8.Be2! to 7.Nf3 Nc6! 8.Be2?! and you'll see the difference.  Many fairly strong players (USCF 2200+) mess up this move order, maybe because it's not explained in many books that cater to the Black side???

Anyway when my opponents play 7.Nf3 Nc6 I play 8.Rb1 and I have decent practical results, but there is so much theory there that I can't keep up with it all.

One line that I think is quite promising for White is 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.d4 0-0 5.Bf4!? d5 6.Rc1!  I can't usually play this way because I play the Saemisch against the KID (so I don't want to commit the King's Knight to f3), but if I'm certain I'll face the Grunfeld I'll sometimes use this move order or something similar.  The main point is that one of Black's main ideas in similar positions, 6...c5 7.dxc5 Qa5?, is now a mistake because of 8.cxd5 Ne4 9.Be5!  If you put the Knight on f3 vs. the King's Indian and Benoni, I'd recommend giving this variation a try.  Another line you'll face a lot is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 d5 5.Bf4 0-0 6.Rc1! dxc4 7.e3 c5 8.Bxc4 cxd4 9.exd4 +/=, when you have the Black side of a QGD Tarrasch with two full extra tempi.  In my opinion, these 2 tempi are sufficient for an advantage.

Good luck...
  
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Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #5 - 07/18/09 at 19:11:01
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Seth_Xoma being an 1.e4 player is a broad category. If one knew what your repertoire was maybe one could make better suggestions. What did you play against the French, Caro-Kann or Najdorf for example?
  
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Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #4 - 07/15/09 at 12:40:38
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The critical test is still the 8.Rb1 line, but lots of work is required.
Up to a certain level the Keres-line is quite handy. 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.e3 0-0 6.cd5 Nd5 7.Bc4 Nc3 (7. ... Nb6 8.Bb3) 8.bc3 c5 9.0-0 Now lots of player move automatically 9. ... Nc6 and white gains a plus after 10.Ba3. 9. ...Qc7 is the correct answer, but even 2200 elo players often don´t know it.
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #3 - 07/15/09 at 10:32:36
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I'm an 1.e4 player also, but I play the Grunfeld as black so I know what the tricky lines are.

I wouldn't suggest the Russian system, it's highly theoretical, black has a quite a few viable setups and white has a pretty hard time proving an edge in this line.

The old main line is pretty much the same. It's very much theoretical, so much so that instead of the highly analyzed ...Bg4 lines, black players have started to play more quietly with ...Bd7 or ...Na5 to sidestep either the Sokolsky attack or the Seville variation.

The Rb1 line is even more analyzed, theory sometimes stretches up to move 30, where most lines have a strong drawish tendency.

What I like for white is the Be3 line. There are quite a few tricks white can use, i.e. the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. Be3 c5 8. Nf3 Qa5 9. Qd2 O-O 10. Rb1 Nc6 11. Rb5 cxd4 12. Rxa5 dxe3 13. Qxe3 Nxa5, which was suggested in a few books, but I think white is almost winning.

If you like playing endgames where you have a small edge, this is the line that will rake in the points.
  
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Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #2 - 07/15/09 at 02:40:47
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Perhaps the Brinckmann Variation would be a suitable choice - I am referring to the position after 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bf4 0-0 6.Rc1. After 6...c6, White has an improved Slav Grunfeld because his dark-squared bishop is actively positioned on f4, and the 6...c5 variation is currently +=. 

The critical variation is 6...dc4, when both 7.e3 and 7.e4 lead to complicated, tactical positions that should suit most 1.e4 players. You can alternate between both moves to keep opponents guessing. 

Otherwise, I would suggest the Russian system with a delayed Nf3, ie 4.Qb3 dc4 5.Qc4 Bg7 6.e4 0-0 7.Be2!?, which probably isn't any better than the 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 move order but is tricky, and many of your opponents would not be familiar with the intricacies of this line.
  

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Re: Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
Reply #1 - 07/14/09 at 23:07:08
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Even though my rating is considerably lower I have exactly the same problem. Fortunately I haven't met the Grünfeld yet. When I do I intend to play the old Bc4, Ne2 main line. But I am not convinced that White has anything, especially in the blockading lines (White is forced to play d4-d5 while the c-pawns are still on the board).
At the moment I consider the suggestions in another thread: the Exchange with a speedy Be3, Qd2 and Rc1 or Rb1. I haven't made up my mind yet. Like Seth I would appreciate any suggestion. That is also the case for those who want to tell me that those blockading positions favour White. In that case I would like a few sample games.

I do have followed Willempie's suggestion to play through Kramnik's games. But I have noticed that he has changed weapons vs. the GID a few times, so I am still at a loss.
  

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Seth_Xoma
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Gruenfeld line for the 1.e4 player
07/14/09 at 22:51:03
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OK, typically I don't like threads like this, but I'm hitting a road block. I'm a 2300 USCF rated player who's trying to improve, played 1.e4 most of my life but sometimes have gone 1.d4 to spice things up. I'm thinking about making 1.d4 more than just a once-in-awhile thing, but I don't know where to start in looking for a line against the Gruenfeld.

Other 1.d4 defenses are not causing me as big a problem. Most of them I at least have an idea what I want to try. But NO variation against the Gruenfeld appeals to me!

I think part of the issue is that, as an 1.e4 player, I am not used to having a big pawn center. So += positions just look like = to me. The funny thing is, the KID should cause me the same dilemma, but it doesn't. Probably because I am a KID player as Black and know what the KID player fears.  Smiley

I've scanned almost all the variations on ChessPub, and some things that I have noted are:

1.) White is having a hard time proving a theoretical edge in the Exchange with 7.Bc4.

2.) The Exchange with 7.Rb1 has maybe too much theory for me to learn.

3.) The Russian has the same problem as I addressed earlier: the big center.

4.) The Fianchetto lines don't look particularly scary for Black.

5.) And now the point that brings me full circle: I don't think White can play for an advantage in any of the sidelines like Bf4, or e3 etc.

Currently I'm fiddling around with 4.Bg5 but I'm not sure in a real otb game I'd like being down a pawn so early, but so far it seems to have more of an 1.e4 feel to it than any other line.

Anybody have any suggestions? Any similar experiences? Should I just go 1.e4 against people if I know they play the Gruenfeld?
  
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