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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!? (Read 16510 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #30 - 11/07/09 at 19:39:26
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Stigma wrote on 11/07/09 at 15:31:15:
While it's nice to see our respect for 5.Bd2 is shared by Anand, aren't you in totally the wrong thread here Smyslov_Fan? Smiley


How embarrassing!  Embarrassed

You're exactly right, I shoulda looked before leaping.
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #29 - 11/07/09 at 15:40:51
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Whatever was Svidler doing on mm. 19--21. Surely he had better?!
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #28 - 11/07/09 at 15:27:05
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Anand just beat Svidler using 5.Bd2!?  in the Tal Memorial.  I have a feeling some people who called it rubbish are regretting that decision.

Now, everyone's going to know about 5.Bd2 Lips Sealed Cry
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #27 - 10/30/09 at 02:51:49
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TalJechin wrote on 10/29/09 at 12:32:01:
Has Cox commented 6...Ne4 in some of his other books too or is the MNb quote from an article or discussion here?

From a discussion here, but don't ask me to find the thread involved.
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #26 - 10/29/09 at 18:54:57
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MNb wrote on 10/29/09 at 02:58:42:
Dean wrote on 10/28/09 at 19:12:30:
What you call "Cox' improvement" was actually mentioned already in
Bellin's excellent "Winning With The Dutch" from 1990 as giving white an edge, citing Didishko-Yuferov 1976.


I don't own Bellin alas, around 1990 I had little interest in the Dutch. Still I assume that Bellin did not mention 11...c5 which looks more natural to me than Yuferov's 11...c6. So I still think it is justified to attach Cox' name to this line.
I don't forget anything, but my only point was that Cox showed a clear road to a white advantage. And that point I maintain.

Concerning 6...d6 and 7...Ne4 I have three remarks.
1) The move shows a tendency to neglect the development of the Queen's Wing, something that troubles me.
2) Even Williams end with +=.
3) When taking up this line it does not make much sense anymore to play the 4...Bb4+ variation in case White plays an early c4.


Bellin mentions both 11.. c5 and 13.. Nf6 as possible improvements but I don't believe in any of them.

Rybka is not particularly fond of the aljechin Dutch and recommends the sophisticated 7... Nf6!? up to d14 Smiley
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #25 - 10/29/09 at 12:32:01
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MNb wrote on 10/29/09 at 02:58:42:
I don't own Bellin alas, around 1990 I had little interest in the Dutch. Still I assume that Bellin did not mention 11...c5 which looks more natural to me than Yuferov's 11...c6. So I still think it is justified to attach Cox' name to this line.
I don't forget anything, but my only point was that Cox showed a clear road to a white advantage. And that point I maintain.


Actually, "the Cox line" (both the Bellin line and 11...c5 etc) can be found in a note in NCO - but these days it seems pedantic to keep on connecting people's names with individual moves. Most books these days only credit names of top GMs if credit is given at all, and even then Fritz & Rybka etc could probably claim most of those moves anyway...

Btw, in Starting Out 1.d4, Cox prefers "7.d5! Bf6 8.Nfd2! Nxd2 9.Qxd2!" though personally, I would definitely play something less cooperative on black's 8th. - Has Cox commented 6...Ne4 in some of his other books too or is the MNb quote from an article or discussion here?
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #24 - 10/29/09 at 02:58:42
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Dean wrote on 10/28/09 at 19:12:30:
What you call "Cox' improvement" was actually mentioned already in
Bellin's excellent "Winning With The Dutch" from 1990 as giving white an edge, citing Didishko-Yuferov 1976.


I don't own Bellin alas, around 1990 I had little interest in the Dutch. Still I assume that Bellin did not mention 11...c5 which looks more natural to me than Yuferov's 11...c6. So I still think it is justified to attach Cox' name to this line.
I don't forget anything, but my only point was that Cox showed a clear road to a white advantage. And that point I maintain.

Concerning 6...d6 and 7...Ne4 I have three remarks.
1) The move shows a tendency to neglect the development of the Queen's Wing, something that troubles me.
2) Even Williams end with +=.
3) When taking up this line it does not make much sense anymore to play the 4...Bb4+ variation in case White plays an early c4.
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #23 - 10/28/09 at 19:12:30
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MNb wrote on 10/28/09 at 03:14:45:
Then you have missed 8.Nxe4 (iso 8.Qc2, which is not White's best) fxe4 9.Ne5 d5 (Williams also gives "Black is OK after 9...c5!? but I don't believe him) 10.Ng4 "does not give White anything either" Be7 11.Bf4! (Cox' improvement) c5 12.dxc5 Bxc5 13.Rc1 +=. Perhaps best is 11...Nc6 12.Rc1 Bd6 but once again 13.Ne5 seems to give White an annoying edge.
I like Williams' book, but I happen to disagree with his final evaluations in almost every single chapter. Founding out why helped me to improve my understanding of the Classical Dutch.


Sure, Williams is no Avrukh to say the least but I like his book too.

What you call "Cox' improvement" was actually mentioned already in
Bellin's excellent "Winning With The Dutch" from 1990 as giving white an edge, citing Didishko-Yuferov 1976. (He also mentiones 7... Ne4 in IZ as a promising new move.)

It seems difficult for black after that line. Instead 7..d5 may be the only chance for close to equal game but I happily take the white side after 8. Ne5!. For example 8... c6 9. Nxe4 fxe4 10.Bf4 and we are back again Smiley  

Also one mustn't forget that the available computer SW*HW 2009 and 2003 when Williams book came out (not even mentioning 1990...) differ by something like 500 ELO.
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #22 - 10/28/09 at 03:14:45
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Then you have missed 8.Nxe4 (iso 8.Qc2, which is not White's best) fxe4 9.Ne5 d5 (Williams also gives "Black is OK after 9...c5!? but I don't believe him) 10.Ng4 "does not give White anything either" Be7 11.Bf4! (Cox' improvement) c5 12.dxc5 Bxc5 13.Rc1 +=. Perhaps best is 11...Nc6 12.Rc1 Bd6 but once again 13.Ne5 seems to give White an annoying edge.
I like Williams' book, but I happen to disagree with his final evaluations in almost every single chapter. Founding out why helped me to improve my understanding of the Classical Dutch.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #21 - 10/27/09 at 21:24:31
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MNb wrote on 10/27/09 at 01:52:10:
The logical complement of those ...Bb4(+) lines is the Alekhine 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 Ne4. Alas JJ Cox has shown a clear road to a white advantage.
Another option which I mistrust a bit is 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.c4 Nf6 and everything depends on the question if White can prove an advantage with 6.d4 or 7.d5.
The most reliable option is probably 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 d5 heading for the Manhattan/Westphalia.


"1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 Ne4. Alas JJ Cox has shown a clear road to a white advantage."

Interesting, Williams' book kind of opinions that black is fine after:

7. Nbd2 "White's best" Bf6 8. Qc2 "Again best" d5 9. b3 "Other moves gives black easy game" c5 10. Bb2 "other moves does not promise anything either" cxd4 11. Bxd4 Nc6 12. Bxf6 Qxf6 13. cxd5 exd5 14. a3 a5 etc.

Rybka already gives slight advantage to black here Smiley
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #20 - 10/27/09 at 01:52:10
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The logical complement of those ...Bb4(+) lines is the Alekhine 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 Ne4. Alas JJ Cox has shown a clear road to a white advantage.
Another option which I mistrust a bit is 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.c4 Nf6 and everything depends on the question if White can prove an advantage with 6.d4 or 7.d5.
The most reliable option is probably 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 d5 heading for the Manhattan/Westphalia.
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #19 - 10/26/09 at 22:04:16
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TN wrote on 10/26/09 at 04:56:44:
After 3.d5 Black seems to have a good game after 3...Nf6 4.c4 (4.de6 d5! is fine for Black, e.g. 5.Nd4 Nc6!? 6.Nf5 Be6 7.Ng3 h5!? offers Black promising compensation) 4...Bb4 (4...Be7 5.de6 de6 6.Qd8 Bd8 is equal as well) 5.Bd2 (5.Nc3 Bc3 6.bc3 d6 is pleasant for Black) 5...Bd2 (5...Qe7!? 6.de6 Bd2 7.Qd2 Ne4!? 8.Qc2 de6 with good counterplay) 6.Qd2 Ne4 7.Qd4 0-0 8.de6 d6 and the position is equal.

White has some other options, such as 3.Bg5 and 3.Bf4, but these are quite harmless for Black. 3.e4 was recommended in an SOS book by Nigel Povah, but I don't have a high opinion of it.


Yes, white can hardly threaten black with anything off-beat after 1. d4 e6 2. Nf3 f5

3. d5 has many good responses: 3... Nf6, 3... Bd6 and even 3... exd5 while 4. Qxd5 d6 5. Ng5!? Qe7 6. Nxh7 isn't as good as it looks...

Why not learn the sound and good main lines with 3.g3! 

Early c4 like 3.c4 is a bit imprecise while it allows various Bb4 plans.
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #18 - 10/26/09 at 04:56:44
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After 3.d5 Black seems to have a good game after 3...Nf6 4.c4 (4.de6 d5! is fine for Black, e.g. 5.Nd4 Nc6!? 6.Nf5 Be6 7.Ng3 h5!? offers Black promising compensation) 4...Bb4 (4...Be7 5.de6 de6 6.Qd8 Bd8 is equal as well) 5.Bd2 (5.Nc3 Bc3 6.bc3 d6 is pleasant for Black) 5...Bd2 (5...Qe7!? 6.de6 Bd2 7.Qd2 Ne4!? 8.Qc2 de6 with good counterplay) 6.Qd2 Ne4 7.Qd4 0-0 8.de6 d6 and the position is equal.

White has some other options, such as 3.Bg5 and 3.Bf4, but these are quite harmless for Black. 3.e4 was recommended in an SOS book by Nigel Povah, but I don't have a high opinion of it.
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #17 - 10/26/09 at 02:10:11
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If black gets into Dutch with 1...e6 option, does white also not have some additional anti-dutch lines which are not available otherwise. Like....

1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.d5
  
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Re: Antidote to Anti-Dutch Lines!?
Reply #16 - 10/20/09 at 02:25:16
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1.d4 e6 2.g3 c5 (3.Nf3 Qa5+) is an independent option.
  
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