Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C30: King's Gambit with Black (Read 18464 times)
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1386
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #15 - 02/03/10 at 12:48:38
Post Tools
Schroeder wrote on 01/29/10 at 09:51:58:
The Gianutio counter gambit is an interesting (and probably completely sound) way to get the opponent out of book as early as move 3.

An important game in this line was Schlechter - Teichmann, Vienna 1903:

[Event "Vienna Gambit"]
[Site "Vienna"]
[Date "1903.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Schlechter, Carl"]
[Black "Teichmann, Richard"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]
[PlyCount "49"]
[EventDate "1903.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "18"]
[EventCountry "AUT"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.07.01"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 f5 4. e5 g5 5. d4 g4 6. Bxf4 gxf3 7. Qxf3 Qh4+ 8. g3
Qg4 9. Qe3 Nc6 10. Be2 Qg6 11. Nc3 Bb4 12. d5 Nd8 13. O-O-O a6 14. g4 Ne7 15.
d6 Ne6 16. dxe7 Bc5 17. Qg3 Bxe7 18. gxf5 Qxf5 19. Be3 Bg5 20. Nd5 Bxe3+ 21.
Qxe3 Kd8 22. Rhg1 Qf8 23. Rdf1 Qc5 24. Qf3 Rf8 25. Rg8 1-0

I think that Black's game can be improved by 11.-Nb4 12. 0-0-0 Ne7 13. d5 c6  14. e6 dxe6! (14.-Nbxd5? 15. Rxd5! cxd5 16. Bb5 +/-) 15. Qd4 Nxa2+ 16. Nxa2 Bg7 17.Be5 0-0 with a pawn up and a comfortable position.

17.Qc5 comes into consideration. 
Even stronger: 14.dxc6 (instead of 14.e6) 14...dxc6 15.Qd4 Nbd5 16.Nxd5 cxd5 17.Bb5+ (17.e6!? Bg7 18.Bb5+ Kf8 19.Qb4 a6 20.Bd7 is also dangerous) 17...Kf7 18.e6+ Kg8 19.Rhe1 seems to favour White.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

Black can free his position: 19...Bxe6! 20.Be5 a6 21.Ba4 b5 22.Bxh8 (22.Bb3? Nc6) 22...Nc6 23.Qc3 Qh6+ 24.Kb1 d4! when he may survive. But "comfortable" wouldn't be my word to describe Black's life in this variation. 
Various threads cover the topic "I need an easy way in the King's Gambit, because I have real work to do in the Ruy Lopez". My impression is that there are dozens of good defences, and 3...f5 may well belong to them, which lead to positions which are only slightly worse. For full equality the classical set-ups involving g7-g5 remain top candidates, but they all require some work. The closest to an easy solution in 30 minutes is 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d6 3.Nf3 f5, discussed in one of those threads.
I am very busy and fear the above isn't really helpful. If chesspub.com could have a separate subscriber section for the KG, please, filled by Fedorov...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
belgian
Full Member
***
Offline


Passionate about chess
and poker...

Posts: 129
Location: Toronto
Joined: 05/14/07
Gender: Male
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #14 - 02/03/10 at 12:39:57
Post Tools
Conquistador wrote on 02/03/10 at 02:09:33:
In my experience, I have done well by using a counter-gambit.
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5!? 3.exd5 exf4 4.Nf3 Nf6 and I transpose back into the King's Gambit to a line which is nice for black.


This is indeed a line that is OK for Black and which doesn't require too much work. It's Larry Kaufman recommendation in "Chess Advantage in Black and White" and a good practical choice.

Conquistador wrote on 02/03/10 at 02:09:33:

Note: You can also play 3...e4 if you want to play the Falkbeer Counter-Gambit.


I am no KG expert, but I am pretty sure White can get an edge against the Falkbeer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ANDREW BRETT
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 622
Joined: 07/07/06
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #13 - 02/03/10 at 09:02:50
Post Tools
I am not sure it's that sound but 1e4 e5 2 f4 bc5 3 nf3 d5!? isn't bad for a one off weapon.

3..g5, 3..d6 and 3...h6 are the critical tests of the KG IMHO. I would say that Black gets his fair share of attacking chances in those lines (once he survives the first 12 moves)

3.. ne7 is championed by Sokolov and Adams and is sound and has the advantage that many KG players don't know it or if they do aren't aware that Black has improved on Spassky v Seirawan.

3..d5 (or via 2..d5 3ed ef which may be a better move order). In the bb5+ lines Black gets an attack see Hartson v Spassky for a lovely game.

You might want Stefan Bucker to comment as he is quite an afficiando for both sides on this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #12 - 02/03/10 at 02:21:03
Post Tools
The first one isn't a countergambit of course, but a main line that every KGeer worth his salt has prepared as seriously as the 3...g5 stuff. Modern theory tends to the statement that it is relatively not as good as 3...g5. Markovich plays it as Black and so everybody should who enjoys an open game with active piece play. But it isn't especially nicer than several other defences.
No KGeer these days fears the Falkbeer.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Conquistador
Junior Member
**
Offline


WWAD-What Would Alekhine
Do?

Posts: 53
Joined: 11/29/09
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #11 - 02/03/10 at 02:09:33
Post Tools
In my experience, I have done well by using a counter-gambit.
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5!? 3.exd5 exf4 4.Nf3 Nf6 and I transpose back into the King's Gambit to a line which is nice for black.   

Note: You can also play 3...e4 if you want to play the Falkbeer Counter-Gambit.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
God Member
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #10 - 02/02/10 at 21:26:02
Post Tools
Iirc, it was simply to play into the symmetrical position after 4...Nf6 5.d4 d5 6.Bxf4 Bxf5. White might have a tiny edge with the extra tempo, but it's nothing. Symmetrical position, no weaknesses, black simultaneously takes all the fun out of the position and will almost certainly get equality soon (if he does not have it already). Very hard for white to play for anything in the resulting positions, really.

So, probably not 'fun', but a great way to spoil white's KG party. The stronger player will probably prevail in the middlegames that arise, but there is no tactical melee - some KG players begin to feel decidedly uncomfortable.

Due to this, 4.e5 has been the published antidote for over 100 years to this line, based on some far-from-perfect romantic game where white sacs a piece. Modern analysis (and of course computers) shed new light on the supposed refutation, and this once-shunned line now appears to be as strong as most black alternatives to 3...g5 in my view, as well as being safer than some!
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
IP Logged
 
ArKheiN
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 728
Location: Belgium
Joined: 03/30/05
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #9 - 01/30/10 at 18:43:39
Post Tools
What is the Black idea to 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 f5 4.exf5? It doesn't look so fun.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #8 - 01/29/10 at 10:43:39
Post Tools
Schroeder wrote on 01/29/10 at 09:51:58:
The Gianutio counter gambit is an interesting (and probably completely sound) way to get the opponent out of book as early as move 3.

An important game in this line was Schlechter - Teichmann, Vienna 1903:

[Event "Vienna Gambit"]
[Site "Vienna"]
[Date "1903.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Schlechter, Carl"]
[Black "Teichmann, Richard"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]
[PlyCount "49"]
[EventDate "1903.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "18"]
[EventCountry "AUT"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.07.01"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 f5 4. e5 g5 5. d4 g4 6. Bxf4 gxf3 7. Qxf3 Qh4+ 8. g3
Qg4 9. Qe3 Nc6 10. Be2 Qg6 11. Nc3 Bb4 12. d5 Nd8 13. O-O-O a6 14. g4 Ne7 15.
d6 Ne6 16. dxe7 Bc5 17. Qg3 Bxe7 18. gxf5 Qxf5 19. Be3 Bg5 20. Nd5 Bxe3+ 21.
Qxe3 Kd8 22. Rhg1 Qf8 23. Rdf1 Qc5 24. Qf3 Rf8 25. Rg8 1-0

I think that Black's game can be improved by 11.-Nb4 12. 0-0-0 Ne7 13. d5 c6  14. e6 dxe6! (14.-Nbxd5? 15. Rxd5! cxd5 16. Bb5 +/-) 15. Qd4 Nxa2+ 16. Nxa2 Bg7 17.Be5 0-0 with a pawn up and a comfortable position.


IIrc this one was recommended in one of the early SOS-books, so the surprise factor may not be too great nowadays. But this is the kind of stuff KGeers tend to play when facing their own opening. "If you can't slow down, accelerate!" : )
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schroeder
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 89
Location: Hamburg
Joined: 03/28/08
Gender: Male
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #7 - 01/29/10 at 09:51:58
Post Tools
The Gianutio counter gambit is an interesting (and probably completely sound) way to get the opponent out of book as early as move 3.

An important game in this line was Schlechter - Teichmann, Vienna 1903:

[Event "Vienna Gambit"]
[Site "Vienna"]
[Date "1903.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Schlechter, Carl"]
[Black "Teichmann, Richard"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]
[PlyCount "49"]
[EventDate "1903.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "18"]
[EventCountry "AUT"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.07.01"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 f5 4. e5 g5 5. d4 g4 6. Bxf4 gxf3 7. Qxf3 Qh4+ 8. g3
Qg4 9. Qe3 Nc6 10. Be2 Qg6 11. Nc3 Bb4 12. d5 Nd8 13. O-O-O a6 14. g4 Ne7 15.
d6 Ne6 16. dxe7 Bc5 17. Qg3 Bxe7 18. gxf5 Qxf5 19. Be3 Bg5 20. Nd5 Bxe3+ 21.
Qxe3 Kd8 22. Rhg1 Qf8 23. Rdf1 Qc5 24. Qf3 Rf8 25. Rg8 1-0

I think that Black's game can be improved by 11.-Nb4 12. 0-0-0 Ne7 13. d5 c6  14. e6 dxe6! (14.-Nbxd5? 15. Rxd5! cxd5 16. Bb5 +/-) 15. Qd4 Nxa2+ 16. Nxa2 Bg7 17.Be5 0-0 with a pawn up and a comfortable position.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1397
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #6 - 11/18/09 at 23:20:46
Post Tools
1 e4 e5 2 f4 ef4 3 Nf3 f5 is the ancient Gianutio Counter-Gambit.
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
Göran
Senior Member
****
Offline


ChessPublishing is great!

Posts: 454
Location: Sweden
Joined: 02/13/08
Gender: Male
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #5 - 11/18/09 at 22:25:58
Post Tools
It has though a score only of 28,3% (23 games).

But, statistics ...
  

What kind of proof is that?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #4 - 11/18/09 at 21:42:46
Post Tools
Göran wrote on 11/18/09 at 21:26:51:
I am not an expert on Wahl’s variation but in Megabase2008 after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 there is 1091 games with 3.Nf6, 78 with 3.Nc3 and only 58 with 4.Bc4. 
Probably not worth anything this early in the opening but it seems like Fritz12 doesn’t really like 3.Bc5 and suggests  3...exf4.


Perhaps that's not surprising, since many people think that 3...Nc6 is Black's best move after 2...exf4 3.Bc4.  Playing that way does commit Black to play 4...g5 if White goes 4.Nf3, but he should be fine.

But concerning 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 f5, I thought that 4.Nc3 was strong.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Göran
Senior Member
****
Offline


ChessPublishing is great!

Posts: 454
Location: Sweden
Joined: 02/13/08
Gender: Male
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #3 - 11/18/09 at 21:26:51
Post Tools
I am not an expert on Wahl’s variation but in Megabase2008 after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 there is 1091 games with 3.Nf6, 78 with 3.Nc3 and only 58 with 4.Bc4. 
Probably not worth anything this early in the opening but it seems like Fritz12 doesn’t really like 3.Bc5 and suggests  3...exf4.
  

What kind of proof is that?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
God Member
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #2 - 11/18/09 at 19:14:10
Post Tools
I quite like this variation for black also, and chuck it in from time to time. The only problem is that 2...Nc6 can be met by 3.Bc4 as well, which probably is not best answered by 3...f5

I've had good results with the crazy-looking 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef 3.Nf3 f5, which was long-discredited by some spurious piece sacrifice, but which moden computer-analysis shows to be holding comfortably for black. Most people either a) don't know the critical line, whence black is fine or b) know of the piece sac (or a variation on the theme) but misplay the resulting position. 

For an example of this sort of game, see an old effort of mine in ICC's T4545 league: 

http://team4545league.org/pgnplayer/pgnplayer.php?ID=16114

  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Göran
Senior Member
****
Offline


ChessPublishing is great!

Posts: 454
Location: Sweden
Joined: 02/13/08
Gender: Male
Re: King's Gambit with Black
Reply #1 - 11/18/09 at 17:24:44
Post Tools
Ari Ziegler has published a small (and wonderful) booklet to introduce the King's Gambit.

He thinks the variation is really nice "A wonderful move which throws White into the inferno of insecurity".

He gives 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nf3 f5!? 4.ef6 e4 5.Ng5 Nf6 6.Be2 Bc5 7.Nc3 Qe7 8.d3 ed3 9.Qd3 d5 (unclear) as the main variation.

He writes about the Wahls variation on 3 of 50 pages .

"Kungsgambiten" by Ari Ziegler.
ISBN 978-91-978348-0-3. My booklet is in swedish but it might be available in English as well. You can ask at about it on order@schackbutiken.com.
  

What kind of proof is that?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo