It seems that the final request is to see the 4...Bb4+ in the book. This looks reasonable because Black can easily impove over Avrukh's analysis and i'm sure mr Cox knows this.

Okay - fair enough.

Keano wrote on 02/11/10 at 16:32:25:


Yes, various move orders do involve trade-offs. But when grandmasters universally use a specific move order, then it is useful to ask if it really is  just a question of trade-offs, or a question of one move order being unquestionably better than the other. 

I don't agree either that this is off topic. I think a discussion of move orders is directly relevant in a decision about the best option against the Catalan.

In the specific case being discussed, after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6, grandmasters universally play 3. Nf3 and not 3. g3. 

John Hall wrote on 02/11/10 at 16:20:27:


And Nigel Daives in his recent "Play the Catalan" agrees with you here. Indeed, in the position after 5...Nc6, it does not take GM insight to see Black is fine.

By the way, I think this book is the most instructive I have come across when it comes to discussing move order issues in the Catalan. It is an irritant that most Catalan books give scant attention to the issue of move orders. 

Ametanoitos wrote on 02/13/10 at 12:52:48:

I would also consider it one move later, so first 6..Nbd7.
Still I dont see much after7.Nfd2 f5(with c6 in this idea is not good as you lack a tempo)

Uruk wrote on 02/11/10 at 19:32:49:


Yes!

John Hall wrote on 02/11/10 at 16:20:27:

That is an interesting line.

After 6.Qa4, it is a reversed Grünfeld with a tempo plus for White. So, it's not so easy for black to equalise.

#1 6...cxd4 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Nxd4 is the reversed sharp Grünfeld line. So it my be helpful, to know the theorie of that variation.

#2 However, what will happen when black is playing 6....Qa5+, changing the queens?

I think everyone is getting a bit carried away here - there are advantages and dis-advantages to all move-orders and to start saying one is better than the other at this early stage is a bit ludicrous in my view. We seem to have strayed somewhat off-topic into the twilight zone 

Ametanoitos wrote on 02/11/10 at 10:50:13:

I'm just guessing that the 3.g3?! move order also has the disadvantage of allowing black to grab the pawn like this:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. g3 dxc4 4. Bg2 c6 5. Nf3 Nd7 6. O-O b5 7. a4 Bb7 8. Nc3 a6 9. Ne5 Nxe5 10. dxe5 Ne7 *

If you play it with 3. Nf3 (e.g. according to Avrukh 1) there are probably better lines like this:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 dxc4 4. e3 (regular QGA)
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 dxc4 5. Bg2 Nbd7 6. O-O c6 7. a4
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 dxc4 5. Bg2 c6 6. Ne5 (two Catalan lines not allowing c6 +b5 for black)

3. g3 seems to me to limit White's choice more than necessary and rules out playing the QGA with 4.e3