ChessPub Forum - Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book

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Question: Which Anti-Catalan do you want to see in IM John Cox' book?

Open Catalan (with 6...dxc4)

5 (8.1%)

Open Catalan (with 5...dxc4)

0 (0.0%)

Open Catalan (with 4...dxc4)

8 (12.9%)

Closed Catalan (with ...c6)

8 (12.9%)

Semi-Tarrasch (with ...c5)

2 (3.2%)

Pseudo-Tango (with ...Nc6)

4 (6.5%)

Disruptive check (4...Bb4+)

25 (40.3%)

Occupy the centre (4...c5 5.Bg2 cxd4 6.Nxd4 e5)

5 (8.1%)

Something else

5 (8.1%)

Total votes: 62

« Created by: MNb on: 02/07/10 at 00:59:17 »

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Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book (Read 40912 times)

Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book Reply #11 - 02/07/10 at 20:16:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Since this will be a book on the QGD, you can be fairly certain IM Cox will analyse a position that can be reached via 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6.


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Mythos Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 56 Joined: 02/21/08	Re: Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book Reply #10 - 02/07/10 at 19:41:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Antillian wrote on 02/07/10 at 19:03:25: Mythos wrote on 02/07/10 at 18:51:45: When playing the black side of the Catalan, I've had several strong opponents delay c4 (i.e. d4, Nf3, g3, Bg2, 0-0) just to avoid ...Bb4+. So I'd prefer to see Cox give an anti-Catalan line that can't be move ordered. Why? When you can easily equalize otherwise. If you are a QGD player, 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 Bf5 is fine for Black. If you are a Nimzo/2C3F2E38214F01/Bogo player, then 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. Nf3 b5 is also fine for Black. I currently use the second line you've given. It's not bad, but I don't get to play it often, and when I do, my opponent knows more about it. My reason for wanting to see a line that can't be move ordered is not based on objective merits; I simply want one line that can be used against the Catalan - easier to learn and maintain. But that's just me. P.S. That line is OK, but I don't think it's easy equality

	FIDE 2148, USCF 2203
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LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1520 Joined: 10/22/05	Re: Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book Reply #9 - 02/07/10 at 19:41:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Mythos wrote on 02/07/10 at 18:51:45: So I'd prefer to see Cox give an anti-Catalan line that can't be move ordered. Me too. My problem with the ..Bb4 lines is what to do against the English move order, since after 1.c4, I sometimes play 1..e6 when I want a QGD. This may be outside the intended scope of the book, but I would love some coverage of 1.c4 e6 and, in particular, the Reti.


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Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3277 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book Reply #8 - 02/07/10 at 19:14:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm not sure that 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. g3 b5 is that easy. Marin gave some pretty deep analysis in "Secrets of Attacking Chess". I think black should get complex equality, but he should be prepared.

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book Reply #7 - 02/07/10 at 19:03:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Mythos wrote on 02/07/10 at 18:51:45: When playing the black side of the Catalan, I've had several strong opponents delay c4 (i.e. d4, Nf3, g3, Bg2, 0-0) just to avoid ...Bb4+. So I'd prefer to see Cox give an anti-Catalan line that can't be move ordered. Why? When you can easily equalize otherwise. If you are a QGD player, 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 Bf5 is fine for Black. If you are a Nimzo/QID/Bogo player, then 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. Nf3 b5 is also fine for Black.

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Mythos Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 56 Joined: 02/21/08	Re: Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book Reply #6 - 02/07/10 at 18:51:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	When playing the black side of the Catalan, I've had several strong opponents delay c4 (i.e. d4, Nf3, g3, Bg2, 0-0) just to avoid ...Bb4+. So I'd prefer to see Cox give an anti-Catalan line that can't be move ordered.

	FIDE 2148, USCF 2203
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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book Reply #5 - 02/07/10 at 15:03:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have no doubt that 4...Bb4+ might well be the best theoretically. But is it the best practically? A Tartokower player after-all wants a reliable system where deep understanding is more important than knowing the latest theory. Which system against the Catalan best meets this criteria? I can't say I know the answer, but I am sure someone here does.

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book Reply #4 - 02/07/10 at 11:30:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/07/10 at 03:01:10: Did your great teacher say *when* Black should play Bb4+? Black has several good options available, as Avrukh discussed. He meant 4...Bb4+. I wish he was here with us so i could ask him again. I imagine he is blitzing with his chess heroes Aleknine and Fisher now up in the sky.... Quote: Most specifically 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. g3 (or for a QGD book - 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 Bb4+) Nf6 4. Bg2 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 (5. Nd2 0-0 followed by dxc4 =) Be7 6. Nf3 0-0 7. 0-0 c6 8. Qc2 (8. Bf4 b6 9. Nc3 Ba6 10. cxd5 cxd5 11. Rc1 Bb7 =) b6 9. Rd1 Bb7 10. Bf4 Nbd7 11. Nc3 Nh5 12. Bc1 f5 If this position is going to be discussed mr Cox should analyse the serius option of 9.Bg5! as played by Gm Kaidanov recently and was given also in Dzindzi's recent Catalan DVD


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book Reply #3 - 02/07/10 at 03:02:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Without a doubt I feel 4...Bb4+ black's best theoretical test of the Catalan at the moment, both as a white player of the Catalan and someone that faces it as black, too. Most specifically 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. g3 (or for a QGD book - 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 Bb4+) Nf6 4. Bg2 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 (5. Nd2 0-0 followed by dxc4 =) Be7 6. Nf3 0-0 7. 0-0 c6 8. Qc2 (8. Bf4 b6 9. Nc3 Ba6 10. cxd5 cxd5 11. Rc1 Bb7 =) b6 9. Rd1 Bb7 10. Bf4 Nbd7 11. Nc3 Nh5 12. Bc1 f5 However, if the book is simply trying to be thematic, then the 6...dxc4 line could be opted for. The problem I'd have with advocating 6...dxc4 is the 8. a4 line, where black's task is simply not fun, and white can play for two results. That's my preferences, anyway. Also, for some reason I recall the 5...dxc4 Open being considered a slight inaccuracy (6. Qa4+ is supposed to be more effective there than after the analagous 4...dxc4 5. Qa4+). I'll have to check, though, maybe I'm just remembering wrong.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book Reply #2 - 02/07/10 at 03:01:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Did your great teacher say *when* Black should play Bb4+? Black has several good options available, as Avrukh discussed. I recently played 4...dc4 5.Bg2 Bb4+, inspired by the Kramnik-Topalov WC match. I won easily despite the fame of the game. It makes me wonder, do many people actually follow and analyse world championship matches anymore?


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book Reply #1 - 02/07/10 at 01:08:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	My great teacher Nikos Karapanos who was a Catalan expert for White, always adviced Black players to study the Bb4+ variations.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Anti-Catalan for IM John Cox' book 02/07/10 at 00:59:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Time for a poll. I hope I haven't forgotten any important option. The starting position is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3. IMJohnCox wrote on 02/07/10 at 00:40:59: The book is supposed to have a Catalan line, although I haven't yet decided which one it will be - any ideas welcome, in fact.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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