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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Birds opening lines for black (Read 45694 times)
MNb
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #22 - 03/20/10 at 01:41:26
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It occurred to me - to answer the request of the OP - that 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.g3 d6 4.Bg2 e5 5.0-0 Ne7 6.d3 0-0 might be an interesting possibilitiy.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #21 - 03/19/10 at 23:03:08
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MNb wrote on 03/19/10 at 21:40:21:
TN wrote on 03/19/10 at 20:47:16:
Also, after 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e4 c5, the Big Clamp setup doesn't give White any advantage (according to Bird connoisseur Vigus in DW) but is still a playable line that players such as McShane have successfully used. Personally I would either transpose to a Grand Prix with 4.Nc3 or a Closed Sicilian with 4.d3 Nc6 5.g3 d6 6.Bg2.


I have always thought that 1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.f4 and 6.Nf3 was called the Big Clamp and 5.Nc3 (or later) the Closed Sicilian?! So now what do you recommend, if Black refuses to play ...d5, the Big Clamp (no Nc3) or the Closed Sicilian (White does play Nc3)?
My recommendation would be to postpone the choice as long as possible. 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.g3 (no need to invite early ...d5 stuff with 3.e4) g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.0-0, 6.d3, 7.e4 (assuming that there is no ...d5 yet) and only depending on Black's setup eventually 8.Nc3. That looks most ambitious to me.

Concerning that early fianchetto move order, 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.g3 d6 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 e5 7.e4 and 8.Nc3 is a line of the Vienna Fianchetto (1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3) that has scored rather well for White.

As you may have concluded, I don't believe in BirdBrain's theory of flexibility. 1.f4 followed by a kingside fianchetto (except vs. early ...e5 stuff in the broadest sense of the word) looks most promising to me.


You are right, by Closed Sicilian I meant 7.0-0 and only then 8.Nc3. The Closed Sicilian should lead to equality as well, but I think White has more chances of gaining a tiny edge with the Closed than the Clamp in the critical lines. 

Against the Fianchetto lines, I like to play 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 c6, when 5.Nc3 d4 6.Ne4 Nf6 is equal, but 5.d3 is probably the most testing answer.
  
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MNb
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #20 - 03/19/10 at 21:40:21
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TN wrote on 03/19/10 at 20:47:16:
Also, after 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e4 c5, the Big Clamp setup doesn't give White any advantage (according to Bird connoisseur Vigus in DW) but is still a playable line that players such as McShane have successfully used. Personally I would either transpose to a Grand Prix with 4.Nc3 or a Closed Sicilian with 4.d3 Nc6 5.g3 d6 6.Bg2.


I have always thought that 1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.f4 and 6.Nf3 was called the Big Clamp and 5.Nc3 (or later) the Closed Sicilian?! So now what do you recommend, if Black refuses to play ...d5, the Big Clamp (no Nc3) or the Closed Sicilian (White does play Nc3)?
My recommendation would be to postpone the choice as long as possible. 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.g3 (no need to invite early ...d5 stuff with 3.e4) g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.0-0, 6.d3, 7.e4 (assuming that there is no ...d5 yet) and only depending on Black's setup eventually 8.Nc3. That looks most ambitious to me.

Concerning that early fianchetto move order, 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.g3 d6 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 e5 7.e4 and 8.Nc3 is a line of the Vienna Fianchetto (1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3) that has scored rather well for White.

As you may have concluded, I don't believe in BirdBrain's theory of flexibility. 1.f4 followed by a kingside fianchetto (except vs. early ...e5 stuff in the broadest sense of the word) looks most promising to me.
  
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TN
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #19 - 03/19/10 at 20:47:16
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Paul123 wrote on 03/19/10 at 13:01:18:
[quote]

TN wrote:

1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3/g3 3...d5 4.Be2/Bg2 Nh6 5.0-0 c6 is my recommendation.


This gives White with some options 

1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3 d5 4.Be2 Nh6 5.0–0 c6 6.d3  I've played

a4, Na3 with the idea of attacking/claiming c4 and c5  I think this set up in particular gives white space to work with his initiative. 
[quote]

Against this setup, I would recommend 6...Nd7 7.a4 e5 which seems about equal. Black could also consider 7...f6 8.Na3 e5, but 8.e4 e5 9.Nc3 looks like an improvement. 

Also, after 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e4 c5, the Big Clamp setup doesn't give White any advantage (according to Bird connoisseur Vigus in DW) but is still a playable line that players such as McShane have successfully used. Personally I would either transpose to a Grand Prix with 4.Nc3 or a Closed Sicilian with 4.d3 Nc6 5.g3 d6 6.Bg2.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #18 - 03/19/10 at 18:34:23
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Probably…Maybe... If one can reach the position where  white's  pawns are on e4, f4 , c3. 
then...the advantage can be had...


I often achieve this kind of structure.  I am not much worried about ...d5, honestly.  I think White still has good chances, and I am familiar with the systems with the early f4 anyways.  I recently have been playing more 1. e4, for the longest time I have wanted to be able to incorporate an early e4 in my f4 systems, but it is easier to do it the opposite way!  And White gets good chances.  I have been playing more King's Gambits now, and I enjoy the positions I get.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #17 - 03/19/10 at 13:01:18
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Quote:


TN wrote:

1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3/g3 3...d5 4.Be2/Bg2 Nh6 5.0-0 c6 is my recommendation.


This gives White with some options 

1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3 d5 4.Be2 Nh6 5.0–0 c6 6.d3  I've played

a4, Na3 with the idea of attacking/claiming c4 and c5  I think this set up in particular gives white space to work with his initiative. 
Quote:


BirdBrain
The only thing about this post is that it does not take into account 3. e4, which is a big alternative...then I guess you would play 3...c5?  Some even would play 3...d5 here, but I think that fits more into White's plans, personally.   


Probably…Maybe... If one can reach the position where  white's  pawns are on e4, f4 , c3. 
then...the advantage can be had...

  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #16 - 03/10/10 at 15:31:26
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This Topic was moved here from French [move by] MilenPetrov.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #15 - 03/01/10 at 14:03:14
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No, it was me talking about a different move order, I apologize for that... 1. f4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. b3, or 2. b3...apologies for the confusion.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #14 - 02/26/10 at 21:45:11
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Finally I don't think 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.b3 a very good idea. Ask the weakest member of your local chessclub why.


That's borderline signature worthy. 

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MNb
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #13 - 02/26/10 at 20:45:17
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I would like to know how exactly Black's play fits into White's plans. I also would like to know compared to which variation White has an extra tempo. What's more, I think Black is the one threatening to play some variation with an extra tempo, namely the blockading system 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 g6.

Anyhow White has scored a miserable 39% (58 games) after 1.e4 g6 2.f4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d5 4.e5 and even worse after 4...c5. Anyone who has taken a glance at that blockading system mentioned above knows how it should be done as Black.
If you are not convinced yet, 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e4 c5 is very playable for Black as well - White is not the only one with flexible play. This is a line of the GPA: 1.e4 c5 2.f4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7. Again Black has done very well after 4.c3 (4.Nc3 Nc6 is the GPA; Black has the extra option 4...a6 not fearing the Open Sicilian after 5.d4 cxd4) Nc6 when ...d5 leads to the same kind of blockading defence.
Indeed, I would hate it if you forgot about 3.e4 ... it would perfectly fit in my plans as Black.

BirdBrain wrote on 02/26/10 at 18:32:56:
And another option is 3. b3...

Finally I don't think 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.b3 a very good idea. Ask the weakest member of your local chessclub why. If you meant 3.g3 I think that's White''s best in this position; it can lead to all kinds of transpositions, including the ...d5; ...c6; setup mentioned above.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #12 - 02/26/10 at 18:32:56
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Black should do fine after 3...d5 4. e5 c5, like you said, but White has the extra tempo on getting the Clamp, the typical pawn center that many Bird players look towards.  This spearhead allows them more space, and consequently they have good chances for developing an attack.  Of course, exd5 is a totally different type of position, but I could imagine the White bishop going to e2 or b5 in those positions.  I would hate to forget 3. e4.  And another option is 3. b3...
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #11 - 02/19/10 at 20:33:59
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BirdBrain wrote on 02/19/10 at 13:14:44:

The only thing about this post is that it does not take into account 3. e4, which is a big alternative...then I guess you would play 3...c5?  Some even would play 3...d5 here, but I think that fits more into White's plans, personally. 


I think black has a very good game after 3. ...d5 4.e5 c5 or 4.exd5 Nf6
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #10 - 02/19/10 at 13:14:44
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TN wrote on 02/18/10 at 21:17:28:
1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3/g3 3...d5 4.Be2/Bg2 Nh6 5.0-0 c6 is my recommendation.

@MilenPetrov

Move the thread to Flank Openings please.


The only thing about this post is that it does not take into account 3. e4, which is a big alternative...then I guess you would play 3...c5?  Some even would play 3...d5 here, but I think that fits more into White's plans, personally.   

I have read comments about a "true" Bird, with the e3 system.  Maybe that was the original way it was played, but that doesn't mean White has to commit to that, especially if Black is going to give White e4 early.  It is the same in d4 systems...some setups are not practical for White to play an early e4, so he must prepare the position first, with f3 and such.  But in this case...Black has given it to White in his first go.  Is it beneficial to White?  I think so.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #9 - 02/18/10 at 22:22:53
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TN, what's wrong with you????  Angry

What on earth are you doing, giving white moves?   Wink
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #8 - 02/18/10 at 21:17:28
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1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3/g3 3...d5 4.Be2/Bg2 Nh6 5.0-0 c6 is my recommendation.

@MilenPetrov

Move the thread to Flank Openings please.
  
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