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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Repertoire for Black in the Catalan... (Read 70747 times)
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #21 - 10/15/10 at 03:00:23
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BPaulsen wrote on 10/15/10 at 02:08:46:
Keano wrote on 10/14/10 at 16:02:10:
There is an interesting new system against the Catalan which has been played by a lot of strong players in 2010. This nice system is not even mentioned in Avrukhs "Grandmaster Repertoire" so should be a useful surprise weapon also, and is perfectly sound. I'll leave it to yourself to find it in the databases. I'll give you a clue - Avrukh patched up one line he missed in the book in an update, but forgot about a similar line which is even stronger for Black.


Interesting? Yes.

New? No. The idea first popped up in 1985.

Instead of being all mysterious - the line in question is 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 Nf6 3. c4 e6 4. g3 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 instead of the more common 5...Be7.

As with any Catalan line there's theory to learn, nuances to be aware of, and don't expect a comfortable ride.


My impression from studying the survey in Yearbook 96 was that Black has excellent chances of equalising. White's best chance for an edge is to follow Kramer-Ovseevich, Neuhausen 2007, but Black can deviate with 7...dc4 or 9...h6, both of which offer equal play.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #20 - 10/15/10 at 02:08:46
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Keano wrote on 10/14/10 at 16:02:10:
There is an interesting new system against the Catalan which has been played by a lot of strong players in 2010. This nice system is not even mentioned in Avrukhs "Grandmaster Repertoire" so should be a useful surprise weapon also, and is perfectly sound. I'll leave it to yourself to find it in the databases. I'll give you a clue - Avrukh patched up one line he missed in the book in an update, but forgot about a similar line which is even stronger for Black.


Interesting? Yes.

New? No. The idea first popped up in 1985.

Instead of being all mysterious - the line in question is 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 Nf6 3. c4 e6 4. g3 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Bd6 instead of the more common 5...Be7.

As with any Catalan line there's theory to learn, nuances to be aware of, and don't expect a comfortable ride.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #19 - 10/15/10 at 01:43:00
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Keano wrote on 10/14/10 at 16:02:10:
XChess1971 wrote on 10/09/10 at 02:24:39:
Anybody knows a good possible repertoire for black in the catalan?


There is an interesting new system against the Catalan which has been played by a lot of strong players in 2010. This nice system is not even mentioned in Avrukhs "Grandmaster Repertoire" so should be a useful surprise weapon also, and is perfectly sound. I'll leave it to yourself to find it in the databases. I'll give you a clue - Avrukh patched up one line he missed in the book in an update, but forgot about a similar line which is even stronger for Black.


You're referring to the Ukranian Variation, right?
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #18 - 10/15/10 at 00:09:15
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Stigma wrote on 10/14/10 at 22:54:43:
Edit: Consulting my database, I "discovered" another interesting option for Black: 5...Nc6 6.0-0 Rb8 7.a4 Be7, keeping the ...Na5 idea but delaying it for one move. Now 8.Nbd2 gives up the d4 pawn. 8.Qc2 looks like a more critical way to do that, while 8.Na3 Na5 has scored very well for black. I will dig up my Marin Chesssbase CD (I actually have it somewhere) and see what he thought about all this!


Marin gives 8. e3. If 8...a6 trying to hold the c4 pawn then 9. Nfd2!

Just on a preliminary check I'm not sure 8. Na3 Na5 is as good as the statistics indicate. The position after 9. Qc2 Nb3 10. Ra2 Nd5 11. Nxc4 Nxd4 12. Nxd4 Nb4 13. Qb3 Qxd4 14. Ra1 (Novelty, apparently, but obvious) isn't simple despite black's extra pawn. I've done some tests and white's compensation is powerful.

In regards to the 5...Nc6 6. Qa4, or 5...a6 6. Ne5 issue, I don't think black needs to fear either one, leaving it as a matter of taste.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #17 - 10/14/10 at 22:54:43
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So let's say Black is aiming for the posiition with both ...a6 and ...Nc6. Then black's choice along the way is whether to allow 5...Nc6 6.Qa4 or (the rarer) 5...a6 6.Ne5!? which may get a boost after featuring in Wojo's Weapons.

5...Nc5 6.Qa4 must be considered very much OK for black given its continued high-level usage and various improvements on Avrukh, while 5...Nc6 6.0-0 Rb8 may or may not be a playable option. What reasons are there really left to prefer the 5...a6 order?

Btw. if 5...a6 6.0-0 Nc6 7.a4 Na5 (Markovich) is fine for Black, can it really be that much worse to have ...Rb8 in (as in Palliser's line) instead of ...a6? I guess it can, since (continuing Markovich's line) 8.Nbd2 c5 9.Qc2 allows 9...cxd4 10.Nxc4 Qc7!; in the analogous position with ...Rb8 that line would blunder an exchange, so there 9.Qc2 is strong.

Edit: Consulting my database, I "discovered" another interesting option for Black: 5...Nc6 6.0-0 Rb8 7.a4 Be7, keeping the ...Na5 idea but delaying it for one move. Now 8.Nbd2 gives up the d4 pawn. 8.Qc2 looks like a more critical way to do that, while 8.Na3 Na5 has scored very well for black. I will dig up my Marin Chesssbase CD (I actually have it somewhere) and see what he thought about all this!
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #16 - 10/14/10 at 20:49:34
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Stigma wrote on 10/14/10 at 20:29:11:
Right. Sorry for being confused.

Buth the lines I mentioned (7.a4 Na5 [Palliser] and 7...b6 [Raetsky/Chetverik]) are after 5...Nc6 6.a4 Rb8. But that's the whole point of 5...Nc6 isn't it, to try to do without ...a6? I don't see why the lines should transpose then.

7...b6 8.e4 not mentioned by R/C 2001, but does look logical.


Yes, I recognized the lines you mentioned were after 5...Nc6 6. 0-0 Rb8, hence why I responded with what Marin gave. The question is whether 6...Rb8 ends up being any better theoretically than 6...a6, given this 7. a4 continuation.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #15 - 10/14/10 at 20:29:11
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BPaulsen wrote on 10/14/10 at 19:53:51:
Tango! uses 6...Rb8, not Markovich's mentioned move order.

Marin claims a white initiative in your first line with 12. Bg5 Qc7 (12...f6 weakens e6) 13. Rfc1.

Quote:
There is also 7...b6!? intending usually Bb7 and Na5, given by Raetsky and Chetverik in their Catalan book (at least in the 2001 German edition which is the only one I have). Their main line follows this game:


7...b6 isn't best met by 8. Na3 according to Marin, he dismisses it as just allowing equality. He likes white after the immediate 8. e4.



Right. Sorry for being confused.

Both the lines I mentioned (7.a4 Na5 [Palliser] and 7...b6 [Raetsky/Chetverik]) are after 5...Nc6 6.a4 Rb8. But that's the whole point of 5...Nc6 isn't it, to try to do without ...a6? I don't see why the lines should transpose then.

7...b6 8.e4 not mentioned by R/C 2001, but does look logical.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #14 - 10/14/10 at 19:53:51
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Markovich wrote on 10/14/10 at 15:20:57:
It took me some days to realize it, but I think that with 5...a6 6.O-O Nc6 7.a4, Black has the significant resource 7...Na5!?, e.g. 8.Nbd2 c5 9.dxc5 Bxc5 10.Ne5 c3 with what seems to me to be a rather reasonable game. 


In that specific move order white can and should head for Avrukh's analysis instead of playing 7. a4.

5...Nc6 6. 0-0 Rb8 is the continuation that 7. a4 works against.

Quote:
Incidentally, 7...Na5 was Palliser's recommendation in his book "Tango!" (transposing from... the Black Knights' Tango). He even seemed to say White is struggling to equalize there. White's best according to him is 8.Nbd2 c5 9.Qc2!? cxd4 10.Nxc4 d3!? 11.exd3 Nd5 and "The d5-steed is pretty strong and d3 is isolated, but White enjoys the better development". He also finds 8.Nc3!? interesting and eventually equal, quoting Inkiov-Van der Wiel, 1983.


Tango! uses 6...Rb8, not Markovich's mentioned move order.

Marin claims a white initiative in your first line with 12. Bg5 Qc7 (12...f6 weakens e6) 13. Rfc1.

Quote:
There is also 7...b6!? intending usually Bb7 and Na5, given by Raetsky and Chetverik in their Catalan book (at least in the 2001 German edition which is the only one I have). Their main line follows this game:


7...b6 isn't best met by 8. Na3 according to Marin, he dismisses it as just allowing equality. He likes white after the immediate 8. e4.

The Marin database has games up to February of '04, but has analysis that is actually deeper than a lot of newer resources in numerous lines. Anyone that's interested in the Catalan needs to get it, even more so since Marin is one of the biggest Catalan experts around.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #13 - 10/14/10 at 18:25:21
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Markovich wrote on 10/14/10 at 15:20:57:
It took me some days to realize it, but I think that with 5...a6 6.O-O Nc6 7.a4, Black has the significant resource 7...Na5!?, e.g. 8.Nbd2 c5 9.dxc5 Bxc5 10.Ne5 c3 with what seems to me to be a rather reasonable game. 


Incidentally, 7...Na5 was Palliser's recommendation in his book "Tango!" (transposing from... the Black Knights' Tango). He even seemed to say White is struggling to equalize there. White's best according to him is 8.Nbd2 c5 9.Qc2!? cxd4 10.Nxc4 d3!? 11.exd3 Nd5 and "The d5-steed is pretty strong and d3 is isolated, but White enjoys the better development". He also finds 8.Nc3!? interesting and eventually equal, quoting Inkiov-Van der Wiel, 1983.

There is also 7...b6!? intending usually Bb7 and Na5, given by Raetsky and Chetverik in their Catalan book (at least in the 2001 German edition which is the only one I have). Their main line follows this game:

[Event "Bad Zwesten op 3rd"]
[Site "Bad Zwesten"]
[Date "1999.01.06"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Sandner, Gunter"]
[Black "Luther, Thomas"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "E04"]
[WhiteElo "2345"]
[BlackElo "2542"]
[Source "ChessBase"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. g3 d5 4. c4 dxc4 5. Bg2 Nc6 6. O-O Rb8 7. a4 b6 8. Na3 Bxa3 9. bxa3 Bb7 10. Bb2 O-O 11. Qc2 Na5 12. Ne5 Bxg2 13. Kxg2 Ne8 14. e4 Nd6 15. Bc3 Nb3 16. Rab1 Qe8 17. Nxc4 Nxc4 18. Qxb3 Nd6 19. f3 Qd7 20. Rfd1 c6 21. Rbc1 Rfd8 22. Bb4 Ne8 23. Bd2 Rbc8 24. a5 b5 25. Bg5 f6 26. Be3 Nd6 27. a6 Nc4 28. a4 f5 29. axb5 cxb5 30. exf5 exf5 31. Bf4 Qd5 32. Rb1 Re8 33. Re1 Rxe1 34. Rxe1 h6 35. Re5 Qxd4 36. Rxb5 Kh7 37. Qb1 Rc5 38. Rxc5 Qxc5 39. g4 Kg6 40. Qxf5+ Qxf5 41. gxf5+ Kxf5 42. Kg3 Ne5 43. Be3 1/2-1/2

with the final comment after 19...Qd7: " We have reached a calm position with roughly equal chances" (my translation).
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #12 - 10/14/10 at 16:02:10
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XChess1971 wrote on 10/09/10 at 02:24:39:
Anybody knows a good possible repertoire for black in the catalan?


There is an interesting new system against the Catalan which has been played by a lot of strong players in 2010. This nice system is not even mentioned in Avrukhs "Grandmaster Repertoire" so should be a useful surprise weapon also, and is perfectly sound. I'll leave it to yourself to find it in the databases. I'll give you a clue - Avrukh patched up one line he missed in the book in an update, but forgot about a similar line which is even stronger for Black.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #11 - 10/14/10 at 15:20:57
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It took me some days to realize it, but I think that with 5...a6 6.O-O Nc6 7.a4, Black has the significant resource 7...Na5!?, e.g. 8.Nbd2 c5 9.dxc5 Bxc5 10.Ne5 c3 with what seems to me to be a rather reasonable game.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #10 - 10/13/10 at 12:44:51
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BPaulsen wrote on 10/12/10 at 19:26:12:
Markovich wrote on 10/12/10 at 18:32:40:
True, true.  It seems that against any of Black's better defenses, White has a number of plausible ways to go, which could place a strain on Black's preparation.

For instance, after 5...a6 6.O-O Nc6, I think that 7.a4, intending 7...Rb8 9.a5, is underrated.  I don't claim it produces += with best play, but it does seem to me that some of the more popular antidotes don't really work very well. 


That line you mention usually pops up via 5...Nc6 6. 0-0 (instead of the more popular 6. Qa4) Rb8 (the main line that's supposed to exploit the difference between 5...a6 and 5...Nc6 in black's favor) 7. a4 a6 8. a5 b5 (8...Bb4 9. Qc2!) 9. axb6 cxb6 10. Bf4 Bd6 11. Ne5 Ne7.

Marin mentions it in his Catalan database. He thinks white has two valid options, one of which annotations indicate += (12. Nxc4), but black has good drawing chances according to Marin, and the other white gets good compensation for his pawn (12. e4) according to Marin/Oll. My personal analysis prefers 12. e4.

Yes, it's significantly underrated. I have a feeling it's going to increase in popularity in the near future once white's fascination with 5...Nc6 6. Qa4 is over, which is coming up soon.


Your conclusions seem to mirror mine.  White also has a dangerous alternative in 10.e4, which I have analyzed at some length.  I looked mainly at 10...Bb7 11.Nc3 Nb4 (I don't think much of 11...b5 12.Bf4) 12.d5!.  I opine that 12...exd5 is dangerous for Black, so 12...Nd3 and 12...Bc5 seem to be the leading candidates, and each seems to lead to a complicated, tactical struggle.

Thanks for pointing out the transpo from 5...Nc6, of which I wasn't aware.  So this one, a4 system can be played against either of these "modern" defenses.  Hmm.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #9 - 10/13/10 at 02:25:05
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It has been already suggested but I want to cast my vote for 4. ... dxc4 followed by 5. ... Nc6. If White is not careful he may easily end up worse and not even equal. An example would be: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 dxc4 5. Bg2 Nc6 6. Qa4 Bb4+ 7. Bd2 Nd5 8. Bxb4 Ndxb4 9. a3?! b5 10. Qxb5 Nc2+ 11. Kd2 Bd7! and Black is already better.

The other advertisement for this line is that Kramnik plays it as Black (afaik he always avoids the main line).
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #8 - 10/12/10 at 19:26:12
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Markovich wrote on 10/12/10 at 18:32:40:
True, true.  It seems that against any of Black's better defenses, White has a number of plausible ways to go, which could place a strain on Black's preparation.

For instance, after 5...a6 6.O-O Nc6, I think that 7.a4, intending 7...Rb8 9.a5, is underrated.  I don't claim it produces += with best play, but it does seem to me that some of the more popular antidotes don't really work very well. 


That line you mention usually pops up via 5...Nc6 6. 0-0 (instead of the more popular 6. Qa4) Rb8 (the main line that's supposed to exploit the difference between 5...a6 and 5...Nc6 in black's favor) 7. a4 a6 8. a5 b5 (8...Bb4 9. Qc2!) 9. axb6 cxb6 10. Bf4 Bd6 11. Ne5 Ne7.

Marin mentions it in his Catalan database. He thinks white has two valid options, one of which annotations indicate += (12. Nxc4), but black has good drawing chances according to Marin, and the other white gets good compensation for his pawn (12. e4) according to Marin/Oll. My personal analysis prefers 12. e4.

Yes, it's significantly underrated. I have a feeling it's going to increase in popularity in the near future once white's fascination with 5...Nc6 6. Qa4 is over, which is coming up soon.
  
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Re: Repertoire for Black in the Catalan...
Reply #7 - 10/12/10 at 18:32:40
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True, true.  It seems that against any of Black's better defenses, White has a number of plausible ways to go, which could place a strain on Black's preparation.

For instance, after 5...a6 6.O-O Nc6, I think that 7.a4, intending 7...Rb8 8.a5, is underrated.  I don't claim it produces += with best play, but it does seem to me that some of the more popular antidotes don't really work very well. 
« Last Edit: 10/13/10 at 12:34:19 by Markovich »  
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