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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7 (Read 48440 times)
huibui
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #24 - 09/14/11 at 18:33:58
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Interesting post. As I like the (4...Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3) a5!?-line for Black, I wonder whether White can avoid this after 5.a3 a5...

I agree that White is very comfortable in your game against the FM, maybe 7...Bb5 just doesn't work so well there and Black should play 7...Nc6.

Black could consider playing 4...Bd7 instead of 4...Qb6, as here 5.a3 probably doesn't work (5...Nc6), and after the normal 5.Nf3 Black could go 5...Qb6, having avoided the whole problem posed by your move-order.
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #23 - 09/12/11 at 08:42:44
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In the position arising after

1.e4 e6
2.d4 d5
3.e5 c5
4.c3 Qb6,

I have three things to comment on:

A) If black wants to avoid the sharp c4!? variations (where the white player accentuates that Bd7-b5 is a rather time wasting maneuver in the resulting transformed position), he has to take first on d4, as previous posts have already mentioned. Alas, White retakes with the Knight (!), preventing the initial Bb5 idea. Giving up d4 is not a problem, the inclined reader will notice the similarities to the variation 4...Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Be2 Qb6, when white has good prospects after taking on c5 (either now or after O-O, not fearing cxd4 cxd4 Nge7 -> f5 because of the standard defensive resource Nc3-a4).

A recent high-class encounter in this variation was fought out in Grischuk - Morozevich in the current World Cup tournament.

B) After 4...Nc6, the first player usually goes for 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.a3!. Out of this reasoning, the first player is well advised o go for

4...Qb6 5.a3!?

As the queen is already on b6, the white player will not get into transposition problems to Bd7 lines, which are considered harmless (i.e. 4..Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3?! (6.Le2) and now either f6 or c4 give black enough play). White achieves two things by this seemingly harmless move, both being connected with the move "won" by not having moved the Ng1 yet. First, White can speed up the counterplay on the c-file, preventing the white square clamp that black often tries to establish. Moreover, the f1-a7 diagonal is not as appealing for the black queen anymore, as white can easily castle following Ng-e2. Finally, black will not be able to overload white's defence of d4 due to the time consuming bishop trade. Hence white does not have to put his knight on f3 anyway. In my opinion, he is good advised to put his knight on the strategically most lucrative square, which is h5.

In a recent rapid game played by myself two days ago against a 2350 FM, play continued

4...Qb6
5.a3!? Bd7
6.b4 cxd4
7.cxd4 Bb5
8.Bxb5 Qxb5
9.Nc3 Qd7 (Qc4/c6 stumbles into a swift Rc1, Qb6 lacks the punch as d4 will not get into pressure and grants white a tempo by the means of Na4)
10.Nge2 Ne7
11.Nf4! and the threat of Nh5, putting pressure on the vital dark squares, forced black to continue with 11..g6, which already gives white some weaknesses to play against. After

12.h4!? (Nd3 -> Bg5 is also very interesting) Bg7
13.h5 Nc6
14.O-O O-O-O
15.Bb2 Kb8
16.Nd3! b6
17.a4! Nxd4
18.a5 ->

White enjoyed quite an advantage, eventually converting his dangerous initiative into a full point.

It should be added that 4...Qb6 5.a3!? c4?!, despite being played twice against me in tournament games by players around 2100, is IMHO an inaccurate move order. With the knight still on g1, white has more freedom on the kingside, and can utilize this in several ways (e.g. an easy f4).

C) Sadly, somewhere in this post I forgot the third point I wanted to address.

Cheers,

Geck0
  

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fling
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #22 - 07/22/11 at 08:38:08
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yes, the idea of 6.Be2 is to prevent the immediate ...Bb5, which 6.Bd3 allows.


This makes sense. It could also be the reason Hector hasn't played this against to many high-rated players I guess.
  
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zoo
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #21 - 07/22/11 at 08:32:55
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yes, the idea of 6.Be2 is to prevent the immediate ...Bb5, which 6.Bd3 allows.
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #20 - 07/21/11 at 23:14:55
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fling wrote on 07/21/11 at 22:06:29:
After 6 ...a5, White can probably play Bd3 and argue that he gets a better version of the Barry-Milner gambit since he has access to the b5-square.

An old idea, that was played by Jonny Hector (he has 4,5/5 in this line after 7 ...Bd7) just the other day against Emanuel Berg is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6. Bd3 cxd4 7. 0-0!? Here most Black players have transposed into more regular lines with 7 ...Bd7, instead of taking on c3. Apparently, he has also played the same line, with 5 ...Bd7 instead of 5 ...Nc6. This has only occured in one game against a player sub-2000, though.

What do you think about this gambit?


It is probably fine for Black to accept, but I doubt White is seriously worse; the question is if Black isn't going to continue dxc3 or Ne7, why did he exchange unforced?  Why not just 6 ...Bb5 (I'm assuming the Wade 5...Bd7 here)?  Hector-Bartel 2010 went 7 dxc5 Bxc5 8 b4 Bxd3 9 Qxd3 Be7 10 0-0 Nd7 11 Na3 a6 12 c4, with a draw after some adventures that mostly look dangerous for White.

I guess my point is that without the knight on c6, the position really is different.  I don't know much about the Milner-Barry (I've begun investigating the Wade, which is a different animal entirely) so I'll keep quiet on 7 0-0 with 5...Nc6.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #19 - 07/21/11 at 22:48:21
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kylemeister wrote on 07/21/11 at 22:26:24:
That was against one of the "lesser" players (against Berg Hector apparently innovated decisively against the 6. Bg5 Nbd7 Najdorf).   



Sorry, just went to bed and started thinking about it. It was against Jonathan Westeberg iirc. He is the Swedish junior Champ I think. Against Berg it was the Najdorf. A big crushing home prep with a knight sac at b5.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #18 - 07/21/11 at 22:26:24
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That was against one of the "lesser" players (against Berg Hector apparently innovated decisively against the 6. Bg5 Nbd7 Najdorf).   
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #17 - 07/21/11 at 22:06:29
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After 6 ...a5, White can probably play Bd3 and argue that he gets a better version of the Barry-Milner gambit since he has access to the b5-square.

An old idea, that was played by Jonny Hector (he has 4,5/5 in this line after 7 ...Bd7) just the other day against Emanuel Berg is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6. Bd3 cxd4 7. 0-0!? Here most Black players have transposed into more regular lines with 7 ...Bd7, instead of taking on c3. Apparently, he has also played the same line, with 5 ...Bd7 instead of 5 ...Nc6. This has only occured in one game against a player sub-2000, though.

What do you think about this gambit?
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #16 - 07/21/11 at 17:55:50
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@orangeCounty : you are totally right in saying that ...Bb5 is not forced in the mentioned line. It is a warning to the original poster, since ...Bb5 was Black's primary goal. Moreover ...Bb5 becomes less and less feasable as White develops, for instance 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3 a5 7.Be2 a4 (seizing space and preventing Qb3) 8.0-0 Bb5? 9.c4 dxc4 10.Nbd2 is ideal for White.

The "third setup" Bd7/Nc6 without Qb6 is an important line. Here a3 wastes tempo and Bd3 leads to a gambit, so White often plays Be2 at once. 


It's probably best to avoid 6...a5 and get 6...Bb5 in, maybe trying 9...Ne7 instead of 9...Nd7, to meet 10 Nc3 with 10...Qd7 and 11...Nbc6.  I can't see an obvious way to exploit the blocking of the Bf8; maybe there's something with Qg4 but the most popular move in the position is actually Qd1-d3 (already we're down to 17 games with this position, 6 players chose Qd3), which of course rules that out.  Interestingly, back in 1995, a not-yet-GM Sergei Volkov won a nice game (He played ...Ne7 earlier, and reached the position by transposition).

This plan appears to get a decent Wade type position, with an open c file and no light square B's.  White has a very nice lead in development, but it doesn't appear to mean much.  I bet the computers like White's chances, but I would be pretty comfortable defending Black's position.  The only way you can really lose is by allowing White to dominate the C line (well, okay, you can get mated on the kingside, but that's going to take a while with no B on the b1-h7).


  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #15 - 07/21/11 at 16:36:21
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dom wrote on 07/21/11 at 11:00:35:
Quote:
[off-topic] The gambit itself 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.0-0 [instead of the standard 7.cxd4 Qb6 8.0-0 Nxd4] 7...dxc3 Nxc3 makes wonders in blitz, it could be labelled a "dangerous weapon". Has it been discussed here or in chess litterature?


I am not sure...but I think I read this line in Tim Harding's book "Four gambits to beat the French" chapter about the Millner-Barry gambit.

I recorded it in my ebook on variations because it is specific, with a little work to be done, since there are all knights on the board, if we compare position with Millner-Barry....then White (resp. Black) has to imagine specific plan  of center attack (resp. development).


I checked the line at home and I am pretty sure the line is NOT in Harding's book....but...there is one good system for Black (I always try to give Black good lines  Smiley )

7.oo Qb6 and now

A) 8.Qe2 Nge7!? (instead of dxc3 ; Stets-Malykin,Pavlograd 2000) and now White has no better than enter the Millner Barry with cx4 because:

9.a3 (Garcia-Cardenas Serrano, La Havanne 1991) Ng6

9.Kh1 Ng6 10.cxd4 Nxd4 11.Nxd4 Qxd4 12.f4 Bc5

9.Rd1 dxc3 (Flitney-Baider, 2007)

Ng8-Ne7-Ng6 plan is less known than Ng8-Ne7-Nc6

B) 8.Re1 Nge7 and White has no better than transposition to line Millner Barry with Re1 after 9.cxd4 Nxd4

C) 8.a3 Nge7 (Garcia-Huerta,La Havanne 1992) 9.b4 Ng6 or 9.cxd4 Nxd4 with an improved Millner Barry (because White lost tempo with a3)

D) 8.Nbd2 dxc3 (only now...since b1 knight has moved to not so active square)
« Last Edit: 07/21/11 at 19:17:29 by dom »  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #14 - 07/21/11 at 11:00:35
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[off-topic] The gambit itself 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.0-0 [instead of the standard 7.cxd4 Qb6 8.0-0 Nxd4] 7...dxc3 Nxc3 makes wonders in blitz, it could be labelled a "dangerous weapon". Has it been discussed here or in chess litterature?


I am not sure...but I think I read this line in Tim Harding's book "Four gambits to beat the French" chapter about the Millner-Barry gambit.

I recorded it in my ebook on variations because it is specific, with a little work to be done, since there are all knights on the board, if we compare position with Millner-Barry....then White (resp. Black) has to imagine specific plan  of center attack (resp. development).
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #13 - 07/21/11 at 09:42:11
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@orangeCounty : you are totally right in saying that ...Bb5 is not forced in the mentioned line. It is a warning to the original poster, since ...Bb5 was Black's primary goal. Moreover ...Bb5 becomes less and less feasable as White develops, for instance 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3 a5 7.Be2 a4 (seizing space and preventing Qb3) 8.0-0 Bb5? 9.c4 dxc4 10.Nbd2 is ideal for White.

The "third setup" Bd7/Nc6 without Qb6 is an important line. Here a3 wastes tempo and Bd3 leads to a gambit, so White often plays Be2 at once. 

[off-topic] The gambit itself 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.0-0 [instead of the standard 7.cxd4 Qb6 8.0-0 Nxd4] 7...dxc3 Nxc3 makes wonders in blitz, it could be labelled a "dangerous weapon". Has it been discussed here or in chess litterature?
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #12 - 07/20/11 at 19:10:38
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I hadn't thought about it that way, as three setups rather than two: I just envisioned the Wade (Qb6 & Bd7) and the "Normal" setup with both those moves and Nc6 in some order.

[Purely idle thoughts - no computer -:

In your line: "6.a3 Bb5 7.b4 cxd4 8.Bxb5 Qxb5 9.cxd4 Nd7 10.Nc3," I don't think 6... Bb5 or 9... Nd7 are forced.  As you note, 6...a5 7 Be2 Bb5? is bad, but Black isn't forced to play ...Bb5 immediately; 7...Na6 looks interesting, planning to play ...Ne7, ...Nc7, and possibly ...Qc6 and ...b7-b5.  7...Bxe2 and 8...c4 could be playable, although to get counterplay you have to go ...f6 eventually..., and with cxd4 played, 9...Ne7 comes into consideration.]





  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #11 - 07/19/11 at 18:46:37
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Note that White can also play with a3, which is never wrong against ...Qb6 lines.

For instance 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6/Bd7 5.Nf3 Bd7/Qb6 6.a3 Bb5 7.b4 cxd4 8.Bxb5 Qxb5 9.cxd4 Nd7 10.Nc3. Here Black can't really dominate the a6-f1 diagonal with 10...Qa6 due to White's slow but effective plan of Bd2,a4,b5 (or Nb5). 10...Qc4 is not advisable either, because White can regroup with e.g. Bb2, Ne2,Nd2, Rc1. Perhaps 10...Qc6 11. Na4 is simplest, with an equalish game. You may want to play 6...a5 to prevent b4, but beware of the trap 7.Be2 Bb5? (7...Nc6 is normal) 8.Qb3 c4 9.Qc2 ruining your plans.

As for White playing an early Nf3, this is for the sake of simplicity. Black has 3 basic setups in the Advance : Bd7/Nc6, Qb6/Nc6, Qb6/Bd7. White wants to react differently against each one, for instance a3 is more effective against Qb6 and Be2 is more effective against Bd7. But in all cases Nf3 is part of his setup, so it is played first, waiting for Black to commit. Black in turn can play ball with Nh6, but this is another story.

Welcome to the difficult world of the French Advance!  
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #10 - 07/19/11 at 17:37:00
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I agree that one of the main advantages of the Wade is delaying ...Nc6 gives White move order problems.  Of course, it also solves some (White isn't forced into Nf3, and can block the d-file if he goes for Nf3), but these are minor issues in the Advance anyway.  I forget the move order, but there's one place you can actually play Bb5(-a6), ...Nd7, ...Ne7, and ...Ne7-c6.  At that point, unless White is doing something like playing f5, Black has to be better.
  
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