It seems there are no games  with 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 d5, so I've found something new?     


As far as I see, the problem is 4.Nxd5 Nf6 5.Bg2! Be6 6.Ne3 (while the retreat Ne6 is not so easy in the Fyfe). So I am not sure whether it deserves a name.    However, we have an ongoing discussion, and a short term is more useful than repeating the moves, again and again. 

The part of Pforzheim where I live is called "Au". So herewith I name the new opening "Ouch Gambit". 

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/23/12 at 04:52:00:

I trust that Tony Kosten, before he changed the title, has carefully studied the opening and thought that it is healthy. 
But you can add the word "Thread", if you want. 

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/23/12 at 04:52:00:

A common prejudice goes, the more ridiculous an idea, the shorter the refutation. In reality only the rescuing lines become longer.

One of the early games which I had mentioned. A consultation game with Fyfe and Sheriff Spens playing White. Crum won in 1884 the Championship Cup of Scotland at the first annual meeting of the Scottish Chess Association, with 7 points out of nine, in front of Fraser (6.5), Spens (6), Forsyth (5; the inventor of the FEN notation); Fyfe scored 2 points - 10th and last place. 



@Vass Many thanks!

Wasn't looking for a moment, and hell broke loose in the Fyfe thread. Thanks for all the contributions, I'll soon reply. And thanks to Tony for changing the thread's title. - The 4...d6 thingy is a fundamental approach, and I admit that I like the move. In the similar gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 d5!? 4.Nxd5 I'd prefer White after 4...f5 5.d3!. So in that case, with g2-g3 already played, I'd prefer the other treatment 4...Be6 5.Bg2 Nf6, with some compensation for the pawn. I'll check whether the extra tempo in the Fyfe Gambit after 4.f4 d6 changes the picture. PS. My database has not a single game with 3...d5. Another CB defect?

Markovich wrote on 07/22/12 at 02:50:19:

An interesting idea. 6.Qxg4 Practically forced, as 6.Be2 Nxe2 7.Ngxe2 Bb4 looks good for Black. 6...Nxc2+ 7.Kf2 Bc5+ 8.Kg3 Nf6 (8...Nh6 9.Qh5 is good for White) 9.Qe2 Qd7. Black can play differently, but I don't see problems for White, e.g. 9...Nxa1 10.fxe5 Nd7 11.Nf3 etc. 10.fxe5 Nd4 11.Qd1 Nf5+ 12.Kh3!.


For example 12...Ne3+ 13.e6 fxe6 14.Qa4! +/-. 

Markovich wrote on 07/22/12 at 02:03:21:

I guess you mean 14.Nf3 Nxe2+ 15.Rxe2 Qd7. Here the computer recommends 16.Ne5 Qh3 17.Nd5 Bb6 18. Nd3, leading to equal play. White has other options, e.g. 18.Nf3 or 18.g4!? f6 19.Nxb6 axb6 20.Re3 Qh4 21.Rg3 fxe5 22.Bg5, unclear.

Since no one seems interested in defending White's cause against 4...d6, I suppose that is the refutation.


As for 4...d5 I'm far from convinced that 5.exd5 is the ML. 
White has plenty of alternatives: 5.fxe5, 5.Nxd5, 5.Be3 and personally I'd be a bit curious about 5.Bd3 too, though the engine doesn't mention it...

The engine isn't too helpful either as it seems to think it's a contest of which line can reach an endgame the quickest...

Anyway, as you know, any pretence at creating theory would require "going wide before going deep".


And btw, this is not a KG, Falkbeer or whatever sales talk you might prefer. However, 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 e5 - The Alekseev gambit iirc - is almost related. 4.exd5 Nxd4 and now no one has played 5.f4 i.e apparently a dubious reply to a dubious gambit.

Well we're off in meta-theory. But you have the Falkbeer, 3...d5 after 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 and also in reply to 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3. You have 3...d5 after 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3. You have ...d5 against the Danish and the Goering. So I quite disagree that 4...d5 doesn't smell good. 

All this about how good it smells is not really relevant, though, as we both agree. 

Still, I grew up with the advice that ...d5 was Black's great goal after 1.e4 e5.

@Stefan: Does White really have comp after 14.Nf3 Nxe7 15.Rxe2 Qd7?

[quote author=55606D4B646269686F010 link=1341412133/100#100 date=1342864424][quote author=012D3E27233A252F244C0 link=1341412133/98#98 date=1342825086]
@Taljechin:  I don't think 4...d5 "might rebound," though it may well not be the best move.  It's active, and it's interesting that it does indeed seem to be challenging to meet.[/quote]

I rarely play 1...e5, but if I did and ever met The Fearful Fyfe over the board in a few years time, I'd rather rely on 4...d6 with a simple idea of strong-holding e5 while developing - unless we come up with something good for White vs d6.

Even if you manage to find something really good for Black with ...d5 eventually, you probably won't remember it when you finally get the chance to play it otb. And besides, the only reason White may play it could be that he's found something clever somewhere - and whoops "we have a rebound". :)[/quote]

These are practical considerations; we're talking theory.  In practice there is no point whatever in my preparing for this gambit, since I answer 2.Nc3 with 2...Nf6.

But even from a practical standpoint for a 2...Nc6 player: if you were, as I am, a longtime 1...e5 player you might prefer to play in an active vein instead of a hunkering-down one.  OTB I very rarely like to hunker down with a pawn, though sometimes I do it.  I decline the Danish and Goering Gambits, for instance, and against the Smith-Morra I play 3...Nf6.  Also actually, so far most of the gymnastics have been by White.  Black's play in this line looks pretty natural to me.

But once again, I do not claim that 4...d5 is the best move, just as I do not claim that 3...d5 is the best move against the Danish.