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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit (Read 240233 times)
TalJechin
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #129 - 07/27/12 at 00:46:14
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/26/12 at 23:06:33:
TalJechin wrote on 07/26/12 at 22:30:36:
As for your other line, I don't see why Black should allow the obvious 20.Bxg7 or why White wouldn't play that... So, either you've got the wrong move numbers when pasting or it's a posting straight from the engine at a low depth.

Sorry, I confused two moves: 19...Ne5 20.Rdf1 Nac6 21.Bc3 =. 

You misunderstand me. I don't think that 4.f4 can be saved. The refutation which I gave earlier in this thread is 4...Bb4 5.Nf3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Qh4+ 8.g3 Qf6 (or Qe7). As far as I can see, this is much stronger than 4...d6, so I was surprised that anybody here would be willing to give White so much compensation for the pawn. With 4...d6 you are playing into White's intentions. When you think that White has not enough play after 4...d6, compare it to the Max Lange Gambit, another case where White gives a pawn with d2-d4. 


Hmm, so you think the computer's ML is good enough for a refutation? I looked at it, some time ago and thought White had a lot of activity with his long range pieces. I tried to reconstruct the line in the pgn below...

After 4...d6 the engines seem to overestimate White's compensation in my opinion, like that defeatist Qe5-a5 manoeuvre, which just looks weird to me.

Maybe in engine vs engine, White may have enough compensation but to me it seems possible to get an edge as Black if you choose your exchanges a bit more carefully.

I don't really get what the Max Lange has to do with this - there the compensation is much more obvious and the pawn structure is quite different.

  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #128 - 07/26/12 at 23:06:33
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TalJechin wrote on 07/26/12 at 22:30:36:
As for your other line, I don't see why Black should allow the obvious 20.Bxg7 or why White wouldn't play that... So, either you've got the wrong move numbers when pasting or it's a posting straight from the engine at a low depth.

Sorry, I confused two moves: 19...Ne5 20.Rdf1 Nac6 21.Bc3 =. 

You misunderstand me. I don't think that 4.f4 can be saved. The refutation which I gave earlier in this thread is 4...Bb4 5.Nf3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Qh4+ 8.g3 Qf6 (or Qe7). As far as I can see, this is much stronger than 4...d6, so I was surprised that anybody here would be willing to give White so much compensation for the pawn. With 4...d6 you are playing into White's intentions. When you think that White has not enough play after 4...d6, compare it to the Max Lange Gambit, another case where White gives a pawn with d2-d4. 
  
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TalJechin
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #127 - 07/26/12 at 22:30:36
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/26/12 at 21:49:07:
TalJechin wrote on 07/26/12 at 18:09:31:
After 10. Bf2 the play could continue something like this: 10...Nf6 11. h4 Bh6 12.g4 Bf4 13. g5 Nd7 14. Nd5 h6 =+

Instead of the premature 13.g5, more precise is 13.Ne2 Qe7 14.g5 Nd7 15.Nxf4 exf4 16.Qd2 Qe5 17.0-0-0 Qa5 18.Qxa5 Nxa5 19.Bd4 Nc6 20.Bc3 Ne5 21.Rdf1, with equal play. Even stronger seems 12.g3 with an edge for White. 

By the way, the idea 4...Bb4 5.Nf3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Qh4+ 8.g3 Qf6 (or Qe7) has a similar ideas to overprotect e5 - only with the additional exchange of the weak Bf8 against the strong Nc3. I'll give more of the early 4...Bb4 games, then add a few remarks on 7...Qh4+(!) which still looks more critical to me than 4...d6.


Well, I don't see the reason why it would be an edge for White after 12.g3, though it may be a sensible defensive move for white...

As for your other line, I don't see why Black should allow the obvious 20.Bxg7 or why White wouldn't play that... So, either you've got the wrong move numbers when pasting or it's a posting straight from the engine at a low depth.

Maybe you just want to save the Fyfe a bit too much by now?  Smiley
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #126 - 07/26/12 at 21:49:07
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TalJechin wrote on 07/26/12 at 18:09:31:
After 10. Bf2 the play could continue something like this: 10...Nf6 11. h4 Bh6 12.g4 Bf4 13. g5 Nd7 14. Nd5 h6 =+

Instead of the premature 13.g5, more precise is 13.Ne2 Qe7 14.g5 Nd7 15.Nxf4 exf4 16.Qd2 Qe5 17.0-0-0 Qa5 18.Qxa5 Nxa5 19.Bd4 Nc6 20.Bc3 Ne5 21.Rdf1, with equal play. Even stronger seems 12.g3 with an edge for White. 

By the way, the idea 4...Bb4 5.Nf3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Qh4+ 8.g3 Qf6 (or Qe7) has a similar ideas to overprotect e5 - only with the additional exchange of the weak Bf8 against the strong Nc3. I'll give more of the early 4...Bb4 games, then add a few remarks on 7...Qh4+(!) which still looks more critical to me than 4...d6.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #125 - 07/26/12 at 18:09:31
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Well, I don't see much of a White initiative, in the other defence he had a lead in development but not now. 

I thought it was well known that a knight with a secure central foothold is equal to a bishop. And with Bf3 being stymied by the e4-pawn, Black has several nice scenarios exchange-wise as long as that whitefielder remains locked in I don't see the bishop pair ever getting relevant, if the position gets more closed then Black can probably even give the bishop for the knight in return for knights on for example e5 and c5. 


As for pawn breaks, I think Black will always have more of those than White...

After 10. Bf2 the play could continue something like this: 10...Nf6 11. h4 Bh6 12.g4 Bf4 13. g5 Nd7 14. Nd5 h6 =+

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Maybe, in a best case scenario, White can get the pawn back by taking Bf4 at some point, but allowing a monster knight on e5 may not be worth it...

I looked a little a little further from the diagram, of course, but didn't see anything appealing for White, so I'm curious about your plan now.

Actually, we seem to have almost opposite opinions of the position, as I see many small plans / set-ups for Black, but few for White...
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #124 - 07/26/12 at 14:55:43
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9. f5 Bg5 10.Bf2 looks logical. 

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Yes, Black has the two knights, but the position isn't too closed. In fact, it is the main problem which Black has to solve: where can he become active, where are the pawn breaks which push back White's initiative? Soon enough the bishop pair will become relevant. - Maybe I should re-read Nimzowitsch, his chapter on the "qualitative minority". His example was that famous game with a minority on the kingside, with Qh7. But isn't a "qualitative minority" the true story here? Black has difficulties to develop a consistent plan, while White can proceed on the kingside, or play Qd3, a3, b4 and expand on the other side. 

Your first idea was - in theory - excellent: the plan to play c6, castle long, then continue with Nf6-e8-c7 and f7-f6, and finally d6-d5. Excellent strategical planning! But White throws little stones and Black fails to execute the plan.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #123 - 07/26/12 at 11:15:52
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The point of 4...d6 was to consolidate, going for a small obvious advantage rather than hoping for a big one but allowing counterplay (as with 6...Nxe2 etc, where it's hard to figure out where the Black king should go). 

The original game plan with ...d6 was to continue the dark square strategy that was started with e5 and Nc6. And somehow this over all plan was forgotten in the specifics...

Now, it struck me that the simplest execution of the idea of strong-pointing e5 should be to give up the bishop pair instead of gaining it.

Something like this then:

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. Be2 Bxf3 7. Bxf3 Be7 8.Be3 Nc6 Instead of 8...c5, from my first post. 
After all, the knight only went to d4 to capture the pawn, and now it simply returns to guard the e5&d4 squares again.

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9. Qd2 

(9. f5 Bg5) 
(9. Nd5 exf4 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Qd2 O-O 12. O-O Ne5)

9... exf4 10. Bxf4 Bf6 11. Nd5 Be5

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #122 - 07/26/12 at 10:01:23
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barnaby wrote on 07/26/12 at 02:28:36:
If you blokes keep going you should be able to sap all the fun, excitement and adventure out of a game of chess and render it as moot as a game of tic-tac-toe.   Wink

Most players would be excited, if their opponent played 3.d4. - In the following game 4.Nb5 is used where most players today might prefer 4.Nd5, hoping for a Belgrade Gambit. It seems possible that this tournament had seen examples for 4.Nd5, but I haven't found any. 

  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #121 - 07/26/12 at 05:26:12
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No need to worry about that. 

While we're analysing dead lines such as this, good players such as Anish Giri are analysing critical lines of the King's Indian and winning impressive games at Biel. The chess world is safe as long as we ignore critical lines in favor of openings such as this.
  
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barnaby
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #120 - 07/26/12 at 02:28:36
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If you blokes keep going you should be able to sap all the fun, excitement and adventure out of a game of chess and render it as moot as a game of tic-tac-toe.   Wink
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #119 - 07/26/12 at 02:01:00
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After 10.Bg5, 10...f6 is a move to be considered.

Other line, 12.Be3 does indeed look safer, though it's very complicated.  I am fairly sure Black isn't worse.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #118 - 07/26/12 at 00:18:19
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TalJechin wrote on 07/24/12 at 13:18:14:
Well, I suppose this thread will go on until a forced win in 40 moves is found...

From a strategical perspective after 10.Bg5 I don't see how White's half-open d-file and slightly better development could challenge a Black =+ or -/+ in the long run, as an extra pawn and the bishop pair is often enough for an edge by themselves. (Not to mention the 2-1 in centre pawns...)

Smiley My goal is modest: to check whether either 4...d6 or 4...Bb4 can refute the Fyfe completely, or if the gambit is playable at least otb. Spens and Crum were good club players, they might have tested other moves, before they came to the conclusion that 4...Bb4 was best. - 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6.Be2 Nxe2 7. Qxe2 c6 8. h3 Be6 9. f5 Bd7 10. Bg5 Nf6 11. 0-0-0 b5 12.Rd3. It seemed to me that White has "something", for example 12...Qa5 13.Rhd1 b4 14.Nb1 Qa6 15.Bh4!? c5 16.Nxe5!

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intending 16...Bb5 17.c4! bxc3 e.p. 18.Nxc3 Bxd3 19.Nxd3, White has sufficient compensation. 

TalJechin wrote on 07/24/12 at 13:18:14:
Another, more pragmatic idea could be 10...Be7 which weakens the d6-pawn a little after 11.Bxe7 but on the other hand, Black gains in development, can castle long and remains with the right bishop complementing the dark squared pawn chain.

After 10...Be7 11.Bxe7 Qxe7, I'd prefer the continuation 12.Qe3 (instead of 12.0-0-0 0-0-0 in your analysis). Black wants to castle long, but at first White throws some stones. The following line isn't forced, of course, but the moves seem plausible: 12...b6 13.a4 Nf6 14.g4 Bc8 15.a5 b5 16.g5 Nh5 17.0-0-0.

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Black's main alternatives now seem to be 17...b4 and 17...0-0. But I like White's active pieces and guess he has enough play for the pawn.

@Markovich: If 9...Nxa1 10.fxe5 Nd7 11.Nf3 0-0, White can react with 12.Be3, to bring his King back into safety. Isn't that relatively solid?
  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #117 - 07/25/12 at 16:56:12
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/22/12 at 13:37:58:


Markovich wrote on 07/22/12 at 02:50:19:
Interesting is 5.exd5 Bg4!?

An interesting idea. 6.Qxg4 Practically forced, as 6.Be2 Nxe2 7.Ngxe2 Bb4 looks good for Black. 6...Nxc2+ 7.Kf2 Bc5+ 8.Kg3 Nf6 (8...Nh6 9.Qh5 is good for White) 9.Qe2 Qd7. Black can play differently, but I don't see problems for White, e.g. 9...Nxa1 10.fxe5 Nd7 11.Nf3 etc. 10.fxe5 Nd4 11.Qd1 Nf5+ 12.Kh3!.

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Well, Black cerainly should prefer 9...Nxa1 to 9...Qd7.  9...Nxa1 10.fxe5 Nd7 11.Nf3 0-0 and I if I were White, I would be afraid,  It may be a matter of taste, but I don't like such an airy spot for my king when the opponent is pretty well developed.  With heavy-duty silicon assistance I looked at 12.Qc4 Nc2 13.Qe4 Nb4 14.a3 f5 15.exf6 Nxf6 16.Qe6 Kh8 17.axb4 Re8 18.bxc5 Rxe6 19.dxe6 Qe7 and White seems to be in serious difficulty after either 20.Ng5 Qxc5 or 20.Bc4 Nh5+, white 20.Be2 Qxe6 looks pretty good for Black.

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That's rather deep, I admit, so perhaps White can improve earlier.  In fact I think that 16.Qf5 g6 17.Qg5 Bxb4 18.Bd2! Be7 19.Kh3 Ne4 20.Qe3! may just save him.  Still, the position earlier is complicated and clearly dangerous for White.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #116 - 07/24/12 at 13:18:14
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/23/12 at 18:29:23:
TalJechin wrote on 07/20/12 at 12:59:12:
[...] I wonder why you're not discussing something simpler and more positional. [...] Can White really get any real compensation for the pawn in the long term after 4...d6, or will Black's extra pawn slowly become increasingly important?

Your analysis involves the advance f4-f5, which I find plausible, since the idea had also appeared in some of the early games. 

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d6 5. Nf3. Your mainline was 5.Be3, an important alternative. 5...Bg4 6.Be2 Nxe2 7. Qxe2 c6 8. h3 Be6 9. f5 Bd7 10. Bg5 Nf6 11. 0-0-0 b5. Instead of your continuation 12. Qd3 b4 13. Ne2 Qa5 now I prefer the more flexible 12.Rd3, the empty square d1 can be useful for an eventual Nc3-d1-e3. 

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Well, I suppose this thread will go on until a forced win in 40 moves is found...

From a strategical perspective after 10.Bg5 I don't see how White's half-open d-file and slightly better development could challenge a Black =+ or -/+ in the long run, as an extra pawn and the bishop pair is often enough for an edge by themselves. (Not to mention the 2-1 in centre pawns...)

But from the technical perspective of playing it out to a win, I'm not sure if the line I gave is optimal. (All the lines I gave took about half an hour together...). And by perfect defence it may not be too late to draw for White, I suppose.

The question is how Black should continue after 10.Bg5, regarding a long term plan. It's tempting to try to keep the bishop pair, especially if a later, crushing, d6-d5 can be arranged. But at the moment I don't see how to do that.  Undecided

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Another, more pragmatic idea could be 10...Be7 which weakens the d6-pawn a little after 11.Bxe7 but on the other hand, Black gains in development, can castle long and remains with the right bishop complementing the dark squared pawn chain.

The following is far from deep analysis, but it illustrates what can happen in practice. Surely, there must be a better use for the bishop than what happens...

  
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Re: C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit
Reply #115 - 07/24/12 at 09:47:44
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Ouch!

I thought that 6.Nxf6+ is inaccurate, must check.

Edit: I had read your "Edit." Thank you very much for the game. Extremely important, of course.
  
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